[Mark Pearce]

Mark

You accused me in an IM last month of not reading comments correctly. This post of mine was I though very clear in that I do not agree with the site of this course. Plus I gave my reasons which one or two readers did not consider relevant.

It does not mean that I have considered alternative sites, which, for your information I have not.

Does St Andrews need an overspill course, well that's the business of The
St Andrews Links Trust who I have total faith in. The have for nearly 40 years done a fair job in looking after the courses at St Andrews

The point of my ongoing concerns on this site (which – correct me if I am wrong - is apparently about all aspects of Golf Course Architecture), is the selection and locations of new courses. I feel it is a fair point, when we see what golfers have to put up with on some courses i.e. long distances between Flags and Tees, No Walking Courses (for whatever reason). This has an effect on golf and is actually taking it away from the original game and the reason why most of the over 50’s on this site started playing the game in the first place.

I don’t blame the Architects. They are given the raw product and asked to achieve miracles. Thankfully there are many talented Designers out there
who have produced some rather interesting courses and modifications.

I hope I have fully understood your question and have answered it to your satisfaction. Feel free to IM me if you feel I have missed the point.

I'll let the inappropriate and irrelevant reference to an IM go.

You say you trust the Links Trust, so I'll take from that that you don't disagree with their judgment that a seventh course was desirable.  You then state that the site chosen was not suitable.  Now I accept that it clearly wasn't ideal but if a course was needed a site was also necessary.  The question that immediately follows from that is; was a better, more suitable, site available?  Since you so strongly feel that the Castle site was wrong I wondered if you had a better site in mind.  If you don't, I'm surprised you can be so unequivocally critical of the choice of the Castle site.

We'd all love new courses to be built on wonderful land, fit for nothing else.  I'd like to win the lottery.  We all know the sort of land you'd like courses to be built on - I'm sure we'd all like those sort of sites to be available.  Perhaps, though, it might be more fruitful to comment on sites that are (or might be) actually available.  A start might be to address whether there was a better site available to the Links Trust for No.7.

[Paul_Turner]

Does St Andrews need an overspill course, well that's the business of The
St Andrews Links Trust who I have total faith in. The have for nearly 40 years done a fair job in looking after the courses at St Andrews

Melvyn

The St Andrews Links Trust wrecked The Eden course to build a driving range.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Paul

As I said

“They have for nearly 40 years done a fair job in looking after the courses at St Andrews”.

A few errors over 40 years is to be expected but my words said FAIR JOB


Mark

I said faith in them, but I understand your point.

I knew the land, well, I did until it has been radically changed. Hence my comments

I don’t know if a new course was required or if there is another site

I have been generating a list of potential sites around Scotland that may be suitable for new golf courses including links and inland sites. I have also passed on some of this information to a designer. Mark, I am trying to help golf and golfers.

You may think that my comments re Land Fit for Purpose and my feelings re the Castle are just to have fun on GCA. Well its not, it’s a subject that will become more prominent and will start to take centre stage as the environment changes, culminating in campaigns to minimise waster consumption and potential restrictions that may overlap on to the running of the course. The North American area will take the hardest hit and some are already working to resolve potential future problems. Part of that will be the selection process and we may hear in 20-50 years from now when I am long gone comments about is that Land fit for Purpose.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The 'dead sister' comment lost it for me. Just remember in the UK it has been deemed that land under a grade 2 is suitable to diversification, I suspect that land is in the 3's. Most new golf courses are alien to some degree since the landscape is changed.
Change in the landscape can be significantly bettered ecologically, a golf course with wild areas is much better for the majority of plants, animals, birds, insects. If left in agriculture this land could be ploughed, grow potatoes, oil seed rape, grow christmas trees. If left as grazing land, then the land could be returned very easily if needed, the only real problem with golf land returning to agriculture is if it needs to be ploughed.
The pictures I have seen in my opinion show The Castle Course as stunning and I would certainly like to see it, its a wonderfull site with views over the town, the cliffs, that coupled with good design, modern methods of drainage, construction, soil improvement lead me to think the land id very fit for purpose, most architects would relish the chance of a go at this one and probably drop their fees.
I think DMK has done a great job with the 'look'.
St Andrews is the mecca, lets be honest this is the 11th course really Kingsbarns and the other two new ones (Torrance/Devlin) plus the Dukes. I am pretty sure they will all be reasonable financial winners. £4M is not that much to spend if £120 is the green fee... £30 green fee per £1M golf construction is not far off in the UK.
The proof will be in the pudding but I suspect most visitors looking for 3 rounds in the area will go TOC, Kingsbarns, Castle.

[Bill_McBride]

The proof will be in the pudding but I suspect most visitors looking for 3 rounds in the area will go TOC, Kingsbarns, Castle.

I'll go two rounds on the Old and one each on Elie and Crail or Lundin, thanks!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian

Did you see the area before the construction started?

For my part I was conveying the connection I have with the land, it goes deep. My memories which include my sister have been carted away with the soil.  Thanks for the sensitivity and understanding.

[G Jones]

are there any photos of the Castle Course since it opened up anywhere? all i can find are the small collection of photos, like the ones on the design website, which don't really give you much of an idea of the tee shots etc.

[Patrick Glynn]

G Jones, I posted a thread with a few pics from when I was there in the Spring - http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34740.0.html

Melvyn, I will send you an IM later. Open forum arguments can get messy.

Patrick

[Bill_McBride]

Adrian

Did you see the area before the construction started?

For my part I was conveying the connection I have with the land, it goes deep. My memories which include my sister have been carted away with the soil.  Thanks for the sensitivity and understanding.

Melvyn, I think a wee dram is in order!  To your health.......

[Brian Phillips]

The proof will be in the pudding but I suspect most visitors looking for 3 rounds in the area will go TOC, Kingsbarns, Castle.

I'll go two rounds on the Old and one each on Elie and Crail or Lundin, thanks!

Bill,

Wait until you play it.  I have played all of those apart from Crail and I would play The Castle first every time at the moment.

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

Really?  I wouldn't take any course over Elie or Lundin every time.  Obviously I would play more rounds at, say, TOC than Elie but I wouldn't play 10 out of 10 even at TOC.  And that's without considering the price.

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

Sorry didn't mean it that way but if someone asked me which of those courses that I would like to play and could only choose one I would choose The Castle.

[Mark Pearce]

Brian,

That makes more sense!  High praise indeed if you'd play the Castle over KB or TOC.  Do you think that will change as you become more familiar with the course and the novelty wears off, or do you think it will prove in your opinion to be a better or more enjoyable course than those?

[Brian Phillips]

Mark,

I love both KB and TOC (although not always...in fact hated TOC the first few times I played it). 

I even wrote the article in World Atlas of Golf and then thought it to be the best constructed (from nothing) golf course in Britain.  I now feel that goes to The Castle due to the difficulty of the material they had to work with.  KB had sand to use whereas The Castle have had to deal with a very heavy soil.

One of the guys I played with on The Castle also played The New course with me in the morning (after my recommendation as it is my favourite course in the town).  After we came off The Castle he turned to me and said:

"it was a good job we played The New first or we would have been disappointed with it compared to this!"

Will I change my opinion over time? 

Maybe but I think Paul Kimber will tweak it over the next year or so (if he is allowed by DMK and the Trust) and it will even improve....time will tell.

[Gary Slatter]

I just finished playing the Castle Course for the third time, first time since it had rakes.  I have to admit it is growing on me, it's actually fun as long as you don't mind the contrived look. Today played with David from Kingsbarns, Neil from the Dukes and Mark (Links Tours), we were first off after HRH opened the course officially.  The greens and fairways were running faster, maybe 9.  It does take 3 rounds to get to know where most of the unusal mounds are, this may make it difficult for those playng only one round then off to the next track.

[Tom Dunne]

It's worth noting that Kelly Blake expands on some of the above ideas in his excellent essay in Paul Daley's new GAV4. Among the many points he makes that have a bearing on this thread, he writes: "Walkability usually is reserved for describing the nature of the layout of the course; however, walkablility should also be a goal with regard to access to the course from urban or suburban areas."

The Castle is just far enough outside of town as to make walking to and from the course unpalatable. This has nothing to do with the quality of the course itself, but it does inherently set it apart from the rest of the Links Trust courses and may in some way affect how some people view it.

[Sean Walsh]

Tom,

It's possible you have something there. I don't think there is any doubt that the course is removed from the town in the same way that the other courses (Even Eden, Strath and Balgove) are part of the town. 

Mark,
As for other places to build the only one I can think of is the stretch of pasture land on the western side of the road heading back towards guardbridge (i.e the road most people enter St Andrews on).  seems enough room over there.  The starters hut could also be little further away from the town than the other three courses.

[Mark Chaplin]

Ruining the land - a links course sits on a specific type of naturally formed land, can a bulldozer and a few 1000 lorry loads of sand create "true" linkland conditions??

[Bob_Huntley]

Melvyn,

When visiting St. Andrews for the Autumn Meeting, we rented Strathtyrum House for the fortnight.

Wasn't there some talk of a course on the Cheape property?

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

Bob

I’m not certain but you may be right, I think it had something to do with the Cheape of Strathtyrum land was insufficient or had to do with the number of courses in that area. My understanding is that the Castle Course was simply the only site near to St Andrews within the town’s boundaries, as a St Andrews Post Code means more numbers and publicity (perhaps some politics) - hence the reason it was built on the South side. Sorry just can’t remember were I read that info, I think it was sometime around 2004/5 – can’t be certain - sorry can't be of more help

[Michael Dugger]

Has anyone here read the book yet?

I have, and most of the answers to all these questions posed here are found within it.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Just heard an Albatross has already been recorded at the 18th.

Anthony

[Mike Hendren]

Does St Andrews need an overspill course, well that's the business of The
St Andrews Links Trust who I have total faith in. The have for nearly 40 years done a fair job in looking after the courses at St Andrews

Melvyn

The St Andrews Links Trust wrecked The Eden course to build a driving range.

HEAR, HEAR!

They also denied yours truly a one-time shot at the New Course with three hours of daylight left because "the starter has gone home."

[Mike Hendren]

Very interesting thread with good comments from both sides.

That said, I know deep in my heart that I will never play the Castle course or Kingsbarns as long as I can walk from my room to the starter's hut at The Old Course.  Never.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Michael

Your words have been heard from on high, but I have had a word on
your behalf to the ‘Powers that be’ to see if we can resolve your
problem re The New Course.

I am please to say I have come away with a satisfactory and simple conclusion to this problem. All parties have agreed that you should
withdraw and never set foot on this Holy Ground of Golf again, however
you may decide to appeal, if so, I have been advised that it is a lengthy process starting off every morning at 7am with 30 minutes swim in the sea
off the Bruce Embankment starting on the 1st January for a period of not less than 3 months.

Should you survive then their Lordships will consider granting you a hearing. Green Fees may be increased if they decide to grant your appeal as you would most certainly receive penalty points in place of a ban (max up to12 at £120 per point). These points will last for a period of three years and payment should be made in advance to the account of Mr M H Morrow (details to follow).

This is by the Order of OTMorris, Sergeant at Arms of The Royal and Ancient Order of ‘The Black Strap’ .     

No thanks is required, just a large Malt or six.

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