[John Kavanaugh]

John,

That is just an example of an affordable great course.  They exist in every locale. 

Using you as an example...Wouldn't you agree that a critic who is a member of a private course better suited to judge private courses?  Isn't depending on advice from a guy like you kind of like asking a Priest for marriage advice?  I think if you joined a club no matter how inexpensive you would be a better critic.  If you are a better critic then it follows that the game is better for it...It really is quite simple.

Using me as an example...

I used to live in Winter Park where the only private club option within 20 minutes is Interlachen.  The initiation fee is $50,000 or more for an equity golf membership.  With a newborn it would be irresponsible to deploy that much money there, with college to save for and everything else.

17 months ago I moved to Oviedo where the only only private club option within 30 minutes is Tuskawilla.  Decent golf course and very affordable for a family.  Non-equity, so you don't have as much of a commitment.

My son is now 6 and he has participated in many activities.  If he consistently wants to play golf it may make sense to join Tuskawilla, but to do so if he's not interested in playing only means that my use of the membership takes time away from the family...something I am not interested in doing.

The golf club I'd love to join is Sugarloaf Mountain, but it was built 49 miles from our new home.  They're having trouble attracting members due to a remote location and sluggish housing market.

Daily fee choices in Orlando don't offer a 'club' feel.  Not only that, I'm most likely to play golf in the evening by myself or with one friend.  I choose not to spend too many of my weekend mornings playing golf.  That'll change in 10 years when my son is older.

Evaluating a golf course's design doesn't have much to do with a course's structure.  A contrasting opinion would say that someone playing the same course repeatedly doesn't have time to see as many other courses.

Seems like you want everyone to be like you...even people you don't know.  That's odd.

John,

What is wrong with Winter Park Country Club?  The rates look affordable... http://www.winterparkcountryclub.com/rates.asp

[Chuck Brown]

On a somewhat related note, do the other GCA members find it odd that so few members of clubs like Oakland Hills, Riviera, Merion, etc., etc., etc. have any apparent concern about the USGA's long-running inaction on equipment technology?  I have not yet found a single Oakland Hills member who has any concern about it.  Yet their #2 tee is backed up to the fence bordering the property.  As is the #15 tee.  And holes 1 and 10 are land-locked.  They have maxed out the property for the upcoming PGA Championship, and if they wanted to try to squeeze out some more yardage (basically just to add overall yardage, not to make strategic changes) they would have to start tearing up some of their Donald Ross greens that have been in place since about 1918.

In summary, the people who would have the most "skin" in the ball rollback debate seem to have almost no concern about it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chuck,

I believe that observation is worthy of its own thread, despite the sensitivity of the subject.   

It's a head scratcher, for certain.

[John Kavanaugh]

On a somewhat related note, do the other GCA members find it odd that so few members of clubs like Oakland Hills, Riviera, Merion, etc., etc., etc. have any apparent concern about the USGA's long-running inaction on equipment technology?  I have not yet found a single Oakland Hills member who has any concern about it.  Yet their #2 tee is backed up to the fence bordering the property.  As is the #15 tee.  And holes 1 and 10 are land-locked.  They have maxed out the property for the upcoming PGA Championship, and if they wanted to try to squeeze out some more yardage (basically just to add overall yardage, not to make strategic changes) they would have to start tearing up some of their Donald Ross greens that have been in place since about 1918.

In summary, the people who would have the most "skin" in the ball rollback debate seem to have almost no concern about it.

That is simply because members of clubs like Oakland Hills, Riviera, Merion, etc., etc. do not become successful enough to join those clubs by living in the past.  What may surprise many of GCAers is that it is fun playing monster tees after a week of crushing peoples hopes and dreams.  

[John_Conley]

Jaka, I don't enjoy playing there.  At all.  May I live long enough to be one of their regulars.

[Matthew Hunt]

Introduce people to the great game.

[Dan Herrmann]

I'd love to see more non-resident memberships. 

For example, I get up to Rochester, NY a few times a year.  I'd love to be able to play some of the great Ross courses on off-peak periods.  I'd also happily pay for that privilege.

But I've not found a club with any non-resident memberships. 

I'm guessing that applies to many other metro areas.

So, John - what I'd do is encourage more clubs to start non-resident memberships where a NR member can play on non-peak periods a few times a year.  Of course, they should live > 150 miles away!

[John Kavanaugh]

Dan,

Have you tried Brook-Lea?  Any club that adds 120 new members in one year knows how to work with people.  Just last week I showed up at a club to pay greenfees for my son and I and the pro came out and made me an offer I could not refuse.  The only problem with non-resident memberships are the large number of people who lie and cheat trying to get a break.  You might even have some luck by tying your dues to a maximum number of rounds. http://www.brookleacc.com/bl-membership.php

[Dan Herrmann]

John -  Thanks for the info - I just sent them a note.

[Peter Wagner]

John,

Let me go back to your original question.  Why do you feel golf needs to be saved?  Things look pretty healthy at the moment.  Are we over-built?  Maybe but I think this will self-correct with the downturn in new housing starts and the corresponding down turn in residential based course starts.

Said another way, after 20 years and 5000 new courses in the U.S. a correction should be expected and might even prove healthy.

- Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Let me go back to your original question.  Why do you feel golf needs to be saved?  Things look pretty healthy at the moment.  Are we over-built?  Maybe but I think this will self-correct with the downturn in new housing starts and the corresponding down turn in residential based course starts.

Said another way, after 20 years and 5000 new courses in the U.S. a correction should be expected and might even prove healthy.

- Peter

The only reason I care is because my brother and several friends are golf course architects.  I personally love cheap affordable open memberships.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think non-resident memberships should be a separate thread.

[Dan Herrmann]

Steve, that's cool.

I brought it up because I thought a NR membership would give one the opportunity to experience golf outside your area and grow to appreciate other architects' works.

By the way - we gotta get together soon to play!  Send me an IM

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