[John Kavanaugh]

The first thing I think every serious golfer should do is join a course and support his local pro.  This of course does not include only strictly private clubs but could include season passes at munis or semi-privates.  What have off site golf warehouses ever given back to the game?  How can anyone who jumps from course to course understand golf culture and subtle nuances of successful architecture?  Weren't all the great classic courses of Europe built and maintained by locals.  Isn't all great architecture a reflection of people who play and have played the course, so to make a course great, great people need to play it.  All politics is local is even more true in golf.

That is one way to save the game, any others?

[Phil_the_Author]

John,

As one who grew up in a family where both parents and all six children played golf, the $5 green fee to play Bethpage was one we could barely afford.

Purchasing used golf balls from the gentleman in Queens who spent days fishing them from ponds and streams at local area courses really meant that we could actually all play. Used golf clubs were the norm and when some were passed on to me it was a thrill to be able to try something different.

I can tell you unequivocably from my own experience that purcvhasing inexpensive golf equipment at discount stores rather than from a PGA pro shop, paying for green fees based upon when money was left over from the food budget and playing the few courses that we could afford on a rotating basis actually INCREASED my appreciation and recognition of the great courses when i would either see them in person, or on those rarest of occasions, get to walk on the course (rarely if ever playing them).

It is a passion for the game and it's history that imbues a "golfer" to become a "player" and one whose understanding for the game and it's architecture is at the highest level.

Joining a club or owning a season pass simply means you can afford to do so and nothing else... 

[John Kavanaugh]

Phillip,

Ebay is now that gentleman in Queens.  The only good I see in golf warehouses is that they let the working poor try out new clubs in person and then go to Ebay for the purchase. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Joining a club or owning a season pass simply means you can afford to do so and nothing else... 

Phillip,

Did you grow up in one of those fantastic ethnic New York neighborhoods like I see in the movies?  I'm simply calling for the same thing in local golf.  Join a club and create a neighborhood of golfers.  You don't even have to join a course near home to get the benefits of learning from the culture of golf.  I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse. 

[Mark_Fine]

John,
The article in the June 14th issue of Golfweek titled, "Saving the classics, one course at a time", talks about an organization who's mission is to help the game of golf particularly public/minicipal golf courses.  The founder is a very caring and interesting gentleman named Dan Bergman.  Time will tell how successful his cause is but he is committed to it and has a real passion to do something significant to help the game.
Mark

[John_Conley]

  I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse. 

Is Greywalls the course in Marquette?  Wild Horse is in the middle of nowhere Nebraska.  What difference does it make if someone can afford the dues?  You should save the fitness club up the street from me and it is important for you to buy a membership.

The problem of "saving golf" is larger than any one person.  Also, there are many reasons why the game suffers for purists as it grows.

May you worry about your own crusade to save the game and less about others.  Even when you remove the financial barrier the bigger enemy of time is still there.  Many family-oriented people are more interested in coaching soccer and other similar activities.  It is easy to do what you suggest if a kid is into golf, but what about those that prefer skateboarding, snowboarding, wakeboarding, gymnastics, martial arts, football, soccer, baseball, music, drama, hockey, tennis, or something else?

Golf won't grow.  Facilities were added to the point we are now overbuilt.  The market is knocking green fees down to make up for the lack of attention on low-end daily fee options.

Bigger forces are at work here, Jaka.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

No problem is bigger than one person.  How does golf benefit by you spending money on fuel and an occasional green fee when that same money could be used creating a "neighborhood of golfers"?  Isn't the high cost of fuel starting to make hit and run golf obsolete no matter how cheap the green fee?  Given limited time and money shouldn't your time and money be put back into the game instead of unrelated industries?  Doesn't a lack of time beg for local golf with friends or family?

[Adam Clayman]

Ebay is not the Ebay it once was. Finding great deals is near impossible now since the increase in dues. Only pro sellers can justify the cost. Ma and Pa do not sell on ebay the way they did five years ago.

As for saving the game and supporting your local pro, on paper it sounds great. In reality, the pro's (PGA) are somewhat responsible for the situation as it exists.  What are they doing to save the game?

Pioneer Park in Lincoln still has a full sheet of lid slammers everyday. So, the problem is not universal and like free markets, should work itself out for those deserving, or, intelligent enough to see the writing on the wall by practicing moderation, planning, and, adapting.

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

Please explain the term "lid slammer".  I do tell my friends not to buy new sets of clubs from Ebay since I have seen so many knockoffs.  We even have a guy in town who consults on coal mining in China who brings home very cheap clubs that are very hard to tell if they are fake or hot.  I have not met a pro who does not match or beat any deal that can be had at a discount warehouse.  Add his expertise and familiarity with your game to the mix and it is a can't miss opportunity.

Just last night I was at LCCC which sits in an area that has been devastated by flooding.  The bug problem has become so intense that golf is becoming a non-issue when compared to staying inside drinking.  We have found that Skin-so-Soft by Avon is an acceptable temporary remedy so last night someone called the local Avon gal and had her come out to sell her wears in the parking lot.  At $6.50 a bottle it proved to be a value.  The local pro bought 20 bottles and marked it up 50 cents for expediency as much as profit.  The coal miner/club importer went nuts at the price gouging and went running out of the clubhouse and chased down the Avon salesgal to save 50 cents.  In today's world the local pro sells at market or not at all.

[Phil_the_Author]

John,

There are occasions where your lack of understanding is rather bleak and this is one of those occasions.

"Phillip, Did you grow up in one of those fantastic ethnic New York neighborhoods like I see in the movies?" No, I did not, in fact I grew up in south Rockville Centre (spelled correctly I might add  ) on Long island. My parents sacrificed everything so that their children might grow up in the suburbs where ethnicity was not a requirement to blend in...

"I'm simply calling for the same thing in local golf.  Join a club and create a neighborhood of golfers.  You don't even have to join a course near home to get the benefits of learning from the culture of golf." This sounds so reasonable... the reality is that most public municipal course players really can't afford to do this, yet many do create groups of friendly regulars with whom they play based upon when they normally sign in. A good example of this are the saturday and Sunday night sleep-over regulars at Bethpage. MOST, by the way, are not there to play the Black, just to play early. That is the aspect of the game that is most important to them, not the architecture...

"I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse."  John, you just met one... me. Wiould you say that I have no appreciation for great architecture and am doing nothing toward saving it?

It is PASSION for the game and it's varied aspects that cause someone, whether wealthy or dirt poor, to involve him or herself in the game and it's architecture...

[Adam Clayman]

JB, Lid slammer is affectionate termed oft used by a friend who worked at Pioneer for 15 years. He uses it in context for those who have to change their shoes in the parking lot. The PGA Tour's version is a bit harsher referring to those who don't make the cut for Saturday play. Somewhere in the middle is the gist of my friend's meaning.

[John Kavanaugh]

Philip,

I think most guys I know play the game because it is an excuse to hang out with other guys and display skills in a manner that most likely will not result in injury.  This is why I believe that individuals like those who come to this site can help keep the game interesting on subtle architectural levels that most people have never experienced.  Don't join a club for yourself, join for what you can bring to the club.

[Peter Pallotta]

John -
I've given this some thought in the past, but probably not enough. I've always thought there was a double edged sword involved, i.e. on the one hand, the concept of the "retail golfer" and the wonderful courses that have come with that concept have been a boon for some golfers and for great golf and golf architecture; on the other, that concept/those courses have raised the level of expectation quite high, and take a goodly portion of the retail golfers' time and money out of circulation -- neither of which I imagine helps the cause or the health of the modest local course (upon which the game of golf rests) very much. It's sort of like the double-edged sword of this discussion board, i.e. wonderful work and great design should be celebrated and encouraged, but since most work (in any field) is just average, and since average fills a need too, I don't think that the concurrent disparaging of all that isn't wonderful and great helps most golfers all that much.

I like your idea of a neighbourhood of golfers. 

Peter 

[Bruce Katona]

John: When you figure out the mechanics of how to do this, e-mail me so I can write the business plan, raise the capital and create the new mousetrap....this is a golf business model that will have a great ROI....Bruce

[Phil_the_Author]

John,

You again missed what I said. I have no disagreement with anyone joining a club of any type to play golf. I simply stated that the act of joining a club does nothing for enhancing the game or saving it's architecture. PASSION does that.

Again, there are a large number of people, AND I AM ONE OF THEM, who simply can't afford to join a club or even purchase an annual green fee pass.

You obviously missed my answer to you which I will once again repeat... "'I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse.'  John, you just met one... me. Would you say that I have no appreciation for great architecture and am doing nothing toward saving it?"

 

[John Kavanaugh]

Philip,

I believe that joining a club is like getting married in that it evokes passion out of commitment.  Of course you as an author and respected historian don't need that extra push.  You might note that Wild Horse is $425 per year or around $36 per month.  Turn down the thermostat a few degrees in the winter and join a club in the summer..It is a win/win.

[John_Conley]

You might note that Wild Horse is $425 per year or around $36 per month. 

Phillip, you might also note that $425 is a lot to spend for a bag tag from a course you won't play.  Don't you live in New York?  That's Gotham, not Gothenburg.

[John Kavanaugh]

You might note that Wild Horse is $425 per year or around $36 per month. 

Phillip, you might also note that $425 is a lot to spend for a bag tag from a course you won't play.  Don't you live in New York?  That's Gotham, not Gothenburg.

John,

That is just an example of an affordable great course.  They exist in every locale. 

Using you as an example...Wouldn't you agree that a critic who is a member of a private course better suited to judge private courses?  Isn't depending on advice from a guy like you kind of like asking a Priest for marriage advice?  I think if you joined a club no matter how inexpensive you would be a better critic.  If you are a better critic then it follows that the game is better for it...It really is quite simple.

[Phil_the_Author]

John,

Once again you simply don't get it... There are people out there that simply can't afford a simple luxury such as "You might note that Wild Horse is $425 per year or around $36 per month."

Though I pay less than that amount on a monthly basis for 14 of the prescriptions that our family needs, that $36 per month doesn't even cover the cost of the other 18. Of course maybe I should just not take the medication I need to keep my heart going or the medications that allow my two sons to live even a semblance of a normal life.

So when you state, "I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse." And I respond with, "John, you just met one... me." Why would you arrogantly and insultingly state, "Turn down the thermostat a few degrees in the winter and join a club in the summer..It is a win/win."?

I can't turn it down any further than mostly off in the winter as I already do.

There are MANY people such as me who have a passion for the game and do all they can to support it despite the arrogant attitudes and denials of people such as yourself.

John, I live outside of Atlanta in Alpharetta, Georgia. I moved down here in 1994 from Long Iland. Currently I am a 24/7 caregiver to my two sons who have debilitating illnesses.

The last time I was able to play golf was at Longshadow last August, four weeks before my open-heart surgery.

I say all this not because I am seeking pity; to the contrary. I do so because John and others like him just simply can't see some of life's realities and feel that generalities apply to all.

They don't.

[John_Conley]

John,

That is just an example of an affordable great course.  They exist in every locale. 

Using you as an example...Wouldn't you agree that a critic who is a member of a private course better suited to judge private courses?  Isn't depending on advice from a guy like you kind of like asking a Priest for marriage advice?  I think if you joined a club no matter how inexpensive you would be a better critic.  If you are a better critic then it follows that the game is better for it...It really is quite simple.

Using me as an example...

I used to live in Winter Park where the only private club option within 20 minutes is Interlachen.  The initiation fee is $50,000 or more for an equity golf membership.  With a newborn it would be irresponsible to deploy that much money there, with college to save for and everything else.

17 months ago I moved to Oviedo where the only only private club option within 30 minutes is Tuskawilla.  Decent golf course and very affordable for a family.  Non-equity, so you don't have as much of a commitment.

My son is now 6 and he has participated in many activities.  If he consistently wants to play golf it may make sense to join Tuskawilla, but to do so if he's not interested in playing only means that my use of the membership takes time away from the family...something I am not interested in doing.

The golf club I'd love to join is Sugarloaf Mountain, but it was built 49 miles from our new home.  They're having trouble attracting members due to a remote location and sluggish housing market.

Daily fee choices in Orlando don't offer a 'club' feel.  Not only that, I'm most likely to play golf in the evening by myself or with one friend.  I choose not to spend too many of my weekend mornings playing golf.  That'll change in 10 years when my son is older.

Evaluating a golf course's design doesn't have much to do with a course's structure.  A contrasting opinion would say that someone playing the same course repeatedly doesn't have time to see as many other courses.

Seems like you want everyone to be like you...even people you don't know.  That's odd.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Once again you simply don't get it... There are people out there that simply can't afford a simple luxury such as "You might note that Wild Horse is $425 per year or around $36 per month."

Though I pay less than that amount on a monthly basis for 14 of the prescriptions that our family needs, that $36 per month doesn't even cover the cost of the other 18. Of course maybe I should just not take the medication I need to keep my heart going or the medications that allow my two sons to live even a semblance of a normal life.

So when you state, "I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse." And I respond with, "John, you just met one... me." Why would you arrogantly and insultingly state, "Turn down the thermostat a few degrees in the winter and join a club in the summer..It is a win/win."?

I can't turn it down any further than mostly off in the winter as I already do.

There are MANY people such as me who have a passion for the game and do all they can to support it despite the arrogant attitudes and denials of people such as yourself.

John, I live outside of Atlanta in Alpharetta, Georgia. I moved down here in 1994 from Long Iland. Currently I am a 24/7 caregiver to my two sons who have debilitating illnesses.

The last time I was able to play golf was at Longshadow last August, four weeks before my open-heart surgery.

I say all this not because I am seeking pity; to the contrary. I do so because John and others like him just simply can't see some of life's realities and feel that generalities apply to all.

They don't.

Philip,

I just clicked on the douche bag thread and saw my picture.  Sorry.

[John_Conley]

Sixtysix hundred thirty-eight posts and it is the first time I recall you acknowledging that you were unaware of the insensitivity of something you posted.

That's a start.  Bravo.

[Mike Hendren]

One possible solution is artisan clubs.  Locals who care for and nuture the golf course in return for off-peak playing privileges. 

Mike

[Doug Ralston]

Joining a club or owning a season pass simply means you can afford to do so and nothing else... 

Phillip,

  I doubt there is a single poster on this site that could not afford the dues at a great club like Greywalls or Wild Horse. 

LOL;

John, you already know better.  And my interest in golf will always be strictly the hedonistic experiece. Variety is the spice that continues to deliver, period.

Besides, my curmudgeony( ) attitude wouldn't fit.

Doug

[John Kavanaugh]

Doug,

You spend more money on fuel and greenfees to golf then you let on.  Tell me where you live and I will find you a cheap membership that will save you money in the long run.

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