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[Kevin Rich]

Me and a buddy of mine (both golf course architects) are contemplaying a trip to play golf in Ireland and Scotland and have gotten a couple warnings about doing too much in one trip.  I lived in Ireland a couple years ago and know the country well enough to get around o.k., but have never been to Scotland.  We've discussed hoping around the major cities (Shannon, Belfast and Edinburgh) with Ryan Air to cut down on travel time and additional car hire.  Is this trip possible in 12 days or less?

Possible Courses Selected to Play (- this is still flexible)
SW Ireland - Ballybunion and Lahinch
Northern Ireland - Royal County Down, Royal Portrush and Portstewert
Scotland - Muirfield, North Berwick, St. Andrews Old and Carnoustie

We don't mind the travel...we are they to play and learn!  It's just the two of us, so I haven't had too many places with issues getting tee times and we are willing to split up for rounds if necessary.

Thoughts?  I'll take comments on here or in my email - krichgolf@hotmail.com

Thanks for any advice.

[Daryl David]

Kevin,

I have done both in the same trip a few times.  Not difficult if you set aside the time.  If you try to cramm it, you will be too frazzled to enjoy it. 

My favorite way is to start in Scotland on the east side and work to the west.  Then take the ferry over to Northern Ireland and work your way down either side.   I have also done the opposite, but with heading to Edinburgh from Belfast by air.

[Bill_McBride]

From my limited research I think you could fly into Belfast and out of Glasgow or Edinburgh, and play Royal County Down, Royal Portrush, Portstewart and Castlerock in Northern Ireland and then take the car ferry over to Scotland where you could play the courses in west Scotland - Troon, Turnberry, Prestwick. 

That would be one heck of a trip you could do in a week without much of  a problem.  I'm not sure about renting a car in Belfast and turning it in at Glasgow, but one of the majors could most likely do it for a fee.

[Mark Smolens]

When I went across the pond in '91 we spent the first few days playing on the west coast of Scotland (Western Gailes, Prestwick, Troon, Turnberry) then took the ferry across to N.I. (Ballycastle, Portrush, Portstewart, County Down) continued to the South (Portmarnock) and then took the ferry back across from Ireland (and played Southerness before driving back to Glasgow).  16 rounds in 9 days was tiring, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat -- tho I'd like to try a few days on the east coast of Scotland this time.

[Kevin Rich]

Daryl

How long would you say is long enough?  Our first stab at an itinerary is something like this

Days 1 and 2 Fly from US to Shannon
Day 3 Play Ballybunion
Day 4 Play Lahinch early morning, then travel to Northern Ireland (either fly from Shannon to Belfast or Drive (5hrs?))
Day 5 Play RCD
Day 6 Play RP and Portstewert
Day 7 Travel to Edinburgh
Day 8 Play North Berwick
Day 9 Play Muirfield
Day 10 Play St. Andrews
Day 11 Play Carnoustie and fly in afternoon from Edinburgh to Shannon.
Day 12 Fly back to US.

Again this is VERY preliminary and flexible on courses.  As you can see we're only planning 2 courses in a day once and figure we'd try and do 36 at St. Andrews and maybe one other time, which would give us more open days and flexibility in travel.

What do you think?  Is 12 days enough?  Can we do it in 10 if we do play 36 holes more often?  Thanks again for your insight.

[Bart Bradley]

Kevin:

Although this trip is possible, it just doesn't seem to make the best use of your time...You will be travelling past so many great spots for the sake of getting to the next destination.  As you know, travelling (especially in Ireland) does not occur at 60mph.  I would suggest that your experience and depth of exploration would be enhanced by making separate trips.  I have, and I absolutely recommend it.

For example, in Scotland you are missing Prestwick...this is a can't miss experience. 

Bart

[Bill_McBride]

I am a firm believer in settling down in one spot for 5 nights and then going somewhere else for 4 or 5.

You are missing a round on arrival day.  It is very simple to fly into Edinburgh and play North Berwick in the afternoon.  It's a great way to fight jet lag.  You could then do the 36 the following day at Muirfield if it's Tuesday or Thursday.  Then there are the courses at Dunbar, North Berwick East (the Glen), 3 at Gullane, Kilspindie, Luffness, what am I forgetting, oh yes a second round at North Berwick West.

Then a 2 hour drive up to St Andrews, where you can easily spend 4 or 5 nights effectively.  You can put in for the ballot each day and fill in with the Eden, Crail, Elie, Lundin, Leven, Scotscraig, Ladybank, Balbirnie Park (home of FBD).....you can prebook the New and the Jubilee.

Too much driving just wastes time best spent either on the golf course or drinking. 

Then you could do Ireland the next year using the same approach.

[Tom Huckaby]

Those of you advocating multiple trips assume such can be done.  This may be the one and only time they get over to Scotland and Ireland.

It's also damn expensive to get there and to get around.....

In a perfect world of unlimited money and freedom, then yes I am with Bill and others who say to go and settle in one place for awhile, play multiple rounds, etc.  That is the only way to immerse one's self in Scottish or Irish golf and culture, and that is a great thing to try to do.

HOWEVER, if one's life doesn't allow for these perfections....

Then yes, what Kevin suggests can be done.  And it doesn't exactly suck.

I've done both ways.

TH

[Daryl David]

Kevin,

It is doable.  I would take the advice of the others and find some ways to be more effective with the time.  When I do these trips everyday except the arrival day and the day you travel between islands is a two round day.  

I posted the schedule I did back in 2005 here awhile back, but can't seem to find it.  I will dig around and see if I can find it and post in a few minutes.

[Daryl David]

Here it is:

Day 1 Arrive Dublin, play County Louth
Day 2 Portmarnock and Island Club
Day 3 2 rounds at European Club
Day 4 Royal Dublin and drive to Northern Ireland
Day 5 2 Rounds at RCD
Day 6 Fly to Edinburgh and play at Gullane
Day 7 Muirfield and North Berwick
Day 8 Luffness New and North Berwick
Day 9 Crail and St. Andrews New
Day 10 2 rounds at Kingsbarns
Day 11 Western Gailes and Prestwick
Day 12 Troon and Turnberry
Day 13 Fly back to US

It was a killer trip and I would not want to do it now.  The expense would be unreal with the exchange.  The one bargain I remember was our air tickets from Belfast to Edinburgh were only 29 pounds a piece on one of those cheapo UK airlines.

[Sean Arble]

Despite AwsHuckster's deal with a perfect world etc, I don't much see the point or need to race around.  I have said it before, folsk are so busy trying to get to the next great course when they have their car parked in the lot of a great course.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

Despite AwsHuckster's deal with a perfect world etc, I don't much see the point or need to race around.  I have said it before, folsk are so busy trying to get to the next great course when they have their car parked in the lot of a great course.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Ciao

Sean:  if one has only ONE chance to get to Scotland, I can see a very viable choice being trying to see as many courses as one can.  If one stays at one place one will have a fine Scottish experience for sure, and will get to know THAT course and its people intimately.  And that is a great thing.  But one will also know nothing about any other courses in Scotland; and for some, that's a bad thing.

As I say, I have done it both ways.  And while staying awhile is BETTER, well... the other way doesn't suck.  Seeing multiple courses is never a bad thing, and it can also be managed so that the windshield time is not taken away from other activities.  Think night-time or early morning drives with bus and driver.

In any case it appears these gents want to see a bunch of courses, and given they are golf course architects, can you blame them?

So methinks now is not the time to reopen this debate which has been had so many times previously in here.  They want to see a bunch of courses, and they ask if it is doable.

It's not the best way to experience Scotland, but it definitely is doable.

And it can also be very fun.  But that last part is for you and I to debate and remains irrelevant to this thread.

TH

[Kevin Rich]

Tom

So methinks now is not the time to reopen this debate which has been had so many times previously in here.  They want to see a bunch of courses, and they ask if it is doable.

It's not the best way to experience Scotland, but it definitely is doable.

And it can also be very fun.  But that last part is for you and I to debate and remains irrelevant to this thread.

TH

You've hit the nail on the head....THANK YOU.

Others:
Don't take this too literal...but the primary purpose of this trip is to experience and play some of the best links in the world in Scotland and Ireland....not necessarily to experience Scotland and Ireland themselves.  I'm certain we'll get lots of that in too though!!  As I said before, I used to live outside of Dublin (just never got to the North to play golf...I know shame on me).  We really just want to learn as much as we can within our short time there about these great courses.  Unfortunately, Family and Funds won't allow a return trip for some time and this is our one opportunity to get there and soak up as much great golf as we can.  As I've noted, we're flexible and things may change...we've also spoken about picking up some lesser knowns as we go, which is why we currently show several days of only one course.  For example, maybe we'll play Ballybunion twice...or maybe we'll try and squeeze in something lesser known...or maybe we'll park it at a pub and get blasted on Guinness.  We'll see as we go.........

As Tom said and others as well....we really want to know if it's doable without killing ourselves.  I was really hoping for some more local knowledge about logistics that might influence us in certain ways.

Anyway....thanks to those that have offered advice worth considering.  It's appreciated.

Happy Golfing!

[Dan Herrmann]

Just be aware that driving in Ireland isn't exactly like driving the interstates in the USA or autobahn in Germany.   Irish driving is, let's say, an "interesting" experience

My father-in-law lost his passenger-side mirror  and a hubcap in less than a week driving around County Wicklow and County Carrow.  (this wasn't a golf trip - my sister-in-law was getting married)

[Kevin Rich]

This I know....I've driven much of the country side in Ireland, mostly in a big Mitsubishi pick-up truck!  Fortunately the drive from Shannon to Dublin to Belfast isn't too bad.  N7 isn't it?  Not quite the County Clare or Kerry country roads with stacked stone fences on either side anyway.

[Dan Herrmann]

Kevin - I was driving from Carlow up to Baltinglass....   Hedges and curves everywhere.

Came to a curve that had a huge sign - "Dangerous Curve Ahead".   I was terrified - if the last 10 miles of danger didn't warrant a sign, what was I about to face?

[Matthew Schulte]

Kevin:

Obviously people will point out that it is less desirable to hit and run all of these courses as opposed to spending more time and playing a handful of courses multiple times.  That said, it is obvious you are trying to see many courses on this trip. 

The following 12 day itinerary works with all of the club's visitor days.


Saturday:  Depart US

Sunday:  Arrive Glasgow - Prestwick (in afternoon)

Monday:  St. Andrews

Tuesday:  Muirfield (AM)  North Berwick (PM)

Wednesday:  Carnoustie, Western Gailes or Turnberry
                         Fly Glasgow to Dublin

Thursday:  Royal Portrush (in afternoon)

Friday:  Royal County Down

Saturday:  Ballybunion

Sunday:  Lahinch

Monday:  Fly to London
                  Royal Cinque Ports

Tuesday:  Royal St. George's

Wednesday:  Fly Home from London

[Jason McNamara]

Days 1 and 2 Fly from US to Shannon
Day 3 Play Ballybunion
Day 4 Play Lahinch early morning, then travel to Northern Ireland (either fly from Shannon to Belfast or Drive (5hrs?))

Or play Lahinch the day you land, then BB, then circle back to Limerick to take the train to Dublin and thence to the North.  (Or show your buddy Portmarnock, and then go to RCD.)

Day 6 Play RP and Portstewert
Day 7 Travel to Edinburgh

About that suggested round at Prestwick, Ryanair does have flights from Derry to Glasgow (PIK) - don't know how many a day, though.  The Derry airport is on the "correct" side of the city for you, and is maybe 20 miles from Portstewart.  At the other end, one of the Prestwick fairways is all of about 1000 feet from runway 13.

And if you haven't already checked into it, you might see about flying from the US to SNN and then leave from EDI.  (Continental flies non-stop to both from Newark, for example.)

It would seem to me you could either add a round or two -or- shorten the trip a day or so, but I will defer to others on that.

[Jim Nugent]

Kevin, Doak's Rennaisance Club is right next to N. Berwick and Muirfield.  Another course you may want to play, that got rave reviews, and is hosting a pro event fairly soon I believe. 

Would love to see more reports on this course, including photos if possible. 

[Mark Chaplin]

Matthew,

Thanks for identifying the Kent coast, just 100 minutes or so from Heathrow and all but the last 10 miles on 2, 3 or 4 lane roads. Deal, Sandwich and a drive to Rye are a great inroduction to links golf. Flights are often cheaper into Heathrow as well.

Personally I'd try and get the great courses in clusters to save on the travel and allow you to return to the same bed for a night or two. Prestwick, St Andrews and North Berwick all allow you tofeast on surrounding golf for a two days or so and reduce travel.

If you think the exchange rate is bad for the UK wait til you see the Euro. If the pound had matched the strength of the Euro it would be $2.50-2.75 to a pound. The UK pound only has strength against the US$ and C$.

[Sean Arble]

Tom

So methinks now is not the time to reopen this debate which has been had so many times previously in here.  They want to see a bunch of courses, and they ask if it is doable.

It's not the best way to experience Scotland, but it definitely is doable.

And it can also be very fun.  But that last part is for you and I to debate and remains irrelevant to this thread.

TH
-

You've hit the nail on the head....THANK YOU.

Others:
Don't take this too literal...but the primary purpose of this trip is to experience and play some of the best links in the world in Scotland and Ireland....not necessarily to experience Scotland and Ireland themselves.  I'm certain we'll get lots of that in too though!!  As I said before, I used to live outside of Dublin (just never got to the North to play golf...I know shame on me).  We really just want to learn as much as we can within our short time there about these great courses.  Unfortunately, Family and Funds won't allow a return trip for some time and this is our one opportunity to get there and soak up as much great golf as we can.  As I've noted, we're flexible and things may change...we've also spoken about picking up some lesser knowns as we go, which is why we currently show several days of only one course.  For example, maybe we'll play Ballybunion twice...or maybe we'll try and squeeze in something lesser known...or maybe we'll park it at a pub and get blasted on Guinness.  We'll see as we go.........

As Tom said and others as well....we really want to know if it's doable without killing ourselves.  I was really hoping for some more local knowledge about logistics that might influence us in certain ways.

Anyway....thanks to those that have offered advice worth considering.  It's appreciated.

Happy Golfing!

Kevin

If yer heart is set on planes, trains and windshield time, of course it is doable. 

To make the trip MORE DOABLE I would suggest skipping the west of Ireland - this section of an itinerary really throws up travel issues in terms of time spent in the car.  Getting from Northern Ireland to Scotland is very straight forward via the Larne to Troon ferry and you are in golf country on the Scottish side. 

While in Scotland if you are looking to play Machrishanish you can take a foot ferry to Cambletown from Troon and get a cab to the course.  There are one day packages to Machrie via plane. 

If you do fly into Dublin and work your way up to Belfast for the ferry, its not hard to fly back to Dublin from Edinburgh - assuming you want to play golf on the east coast. 

-Fly to Dublin
-Portmarnock (night stop)
-Hit Co Louth heading north to RCD (night stop)
-Perhaps detour to Portrush (not sure its worth the extra driving if other greats are scheduled)
-RCD/ferry to Troon (may be possible to take a night ferry)
-Western Gailes, Prestwick & Turnberry
-Perhaps a side trip to either Machrihanish or Machrie
-Drive to east
-Muirfield, North Berwick, TOC and whatever
-fly from Edinburgh to Dublin and play The Island
-fly home

I reckon to do this itinerary comfortably, playing one of Machrie or Machrihanish and not Portrush, would take a good 12 days.  Any 36 hole days I would recommend at the same the course becasue its not a bad deal to do so and its saves running around.  For instance, the day rate at Muirfield with the lunch is probably another £75 more than the 18 hole rate - its well worth it.

Ciao

[cary lichtenstein]

too much ground, not allowing yourself's the time to absorb what you are seeing and playing, rush and z miss

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean makes a good point on 36 holes, several private clubs are far better value playing two rounds, for a classic such as Murfield the second lap will filling in the gaps of knowledge as well as walk off the unmissable luncheon.

[Mark Pearce]

I'd also say that to visit someof these clubs and just play the course is to miss a crucial part of the experience.  Muirfield without the long lunch is a great course, with lunch and a second 18 in the afternoon it's a great experience.

[Mark Smolens]

Since I saw Mr. Chaplin's post above, I would point out that he would be an excellent host and playing partner if you can put Deal in your itinerary.  I enjoyed his company at Black Shee very much with Messrs. Moore and Solow while he was making his tour of great American courses some weeks ago.

[Kevin Rich]

Matthew, Jason, Mark, Sean and others.....

Thanks for the input...some great tidbits in there.  That's a bit more of what I was hoping for initially.

I realize that some of this may not be ideal and we may be swayed as we lay this out a little tighter now.  There are so many GREAT courses over there I wish I could move back!

Thanks again to all....I may drop a couple more thoughts your way next week for feedback as we put our heads together and soak this stuff in a bit better.  Lots of planning to do!

[Dan King]

An important consideration is some car rental companies charge considerably more if more than one driver. If only one of you are driving, you may not want to spend as much time on the road.

Cheers,
Dan King

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
  --George Carlin

[Reef Wilson]

My 2 cents based on my only other trip. The only thing I will do differently on my next trip to Scotland or first trip to Ireland is make sure sometime during the trip I stay in one place at least 3 nights in a row. Checking in and out of a different place every night allows you to cover a lot of ground but it can be a bit exhausting with doing lots of packing in parking lots etc. Of course you should make this an interesting place, like St. Andrews which is a great place to soak in. There is nothing like wandering around in St. Andrews during dawn or dusk.

I can't wait for my next chance to plan a trip over there.

Reef

[Pete Lavallee]

I can't wait for my next chance to plan a trip over there.

Reef,

I can't wait until I can afford to plan another trip over there!

[Kevin Rich]

Is there a recommended place to work from for the eastern Scotland courses (TOC, N.Berwick, Muirfield, Carnoustie)??

If we had to drop one (or two) of those to make it easier for a 4 day home base in St. Andrews, which course(s) makes it more difficult?  Would it be better to drop N.Berwick and Muirfield and plug in a couple closer (Crail, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns)  I'd hate to drop Muirfield and NB, but I think they're two that we're least married too.

Thoughts?

[Bill_McBride]

There is nothing like wandering around in St. Andrews during dawn or dusk.

From pub to pub, right? 

[Daryl David]

Is there a recommended place to work from for the eastern Scotland courses (TOC, N.Berwick, Muirfield, Carnoustie)??

If we had to drop one (or two) of those to make it easier for a 4 day home base in St. Andrews, which course(s) makes it more difficult?  Would it be better to drop N.Berwick and Muirfield and plug in a couple closer (Crail, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns)  I'd hate to drop Muirfield and NB, but I think they're two that we're least married too.

Thoughts?

Kevin,

If you can only have one base, do East Lothian.  Otherwise I would split the base between there and Fife.  It is a pain to change hotels, but the miss one area just to save the packing is not worth it.  You would be missing too much by not seeing North Berwick, Muirfield, Gullane, Luffness New.

[Reef Wilson]

I can't wait for my next chance to plan a trip over there.

Reef,

I can't wait until I can afford to plan another trip over there!

Pete,
No kidding! Our poor little dollar makes it quite the splurge. As it was on the last trip I stayed away from the pricier courses except for TOC. And I know I had just as much fun.

Reef

[Reef Wilson]

Is there a recommended place to work from for the eastern Scotland courses (TOC, N.Berwick, Muirfield, Carnoustie)??

If we had to drop one (or two) of those to make it easier for a 4 day home base in St. Andrews, which course(s) makes it more difficult?  Would it be better to drop N.Berwick and Muirfield and plug in a couple closer (Crail, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns)  I'd hate to drop Muirfield and NB, but I think they're two that we're least married too.

Thoughts?

I think you are on the right track here. This is what I did and would do over again. Not knowing when you'll be back, you have to go to St. Andrews and you'll find Crail, Elie, etc. to be very pleasant surprises.

[Matthew Schulte]

Kevin:

I personally wouldn't skip North Berwick!!  I would be very surprised if at the end of your trip it wasn't in your top 5 experiences.

The pain of checking into different hotels each night can be dramatically reduced by only bringing in an "Eagle Creek" packing envelope with the next day's change of clothes and your toiletry bag rather than dragging your entire suitcase in and out of the hotel each evening and morning.   

The drive from East Lothian to Fife is an easy one and should not discourage you from seeing what you want to see in both regions.