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Patrick Hodgdon

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Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« on: June 06, 2008, 01:54:30 AM »
Took 200 pictures when I played last Monday. I would be happy to do a "my home course" on Interlachen (John Conley could contribute too) if the powers that be would like one.

Here's 15 of my favorite shots with a little commentary. I'll post them smaller but can do them bigger later by request.

#1 (Member's #10) for the Open. Landing area is anywhere from the bottom of the hill (hybrid/3-iron off the tee) to the table-top plateau (driver) before the greenside bunkers. Most of the Solheim players played it to the top part iirc. One of the biggest and toughest greens on the course will definitely keep the scores around par.




One of if not my favorite holes on the course the par-3 4th (Member's 13th) is a great 160-190-yard par 3 that I believe (the experts can certainly correct me) qualifies as a redan. It often plays into the wind to a front-to-back and right-to-left sloping green (which is unique to every other back-to-front Ross green on the course) guarded by large bunkers in front and on both sides as well as a 20-foot drop off in back which is all nasty long rough. I would say it is one of if not the hardest greens to hit in regulation at I.C.C.


The other par-3 on the back is #8 (Member's 17) and was the longest par-3 @ 268 yards in mens US Open History until Bethpage I believe. This is about where Bobby Jones would have played it from never once hitting the green in 4 tries. The ladies will be playing it from about 220. A great play here is to hit it to the front-left corner of the green and let the ground kick it right and roll onto the green.

Where Bobby would have played from minus the trees obviously...


And the ladies...


#9 (Member's 18) is another great Ross hole with a semi-blind tee-shot that is best played with a bend to the right around or over the large tree at the top of the hill to a fairway 25 feet below. Then a tough second shot to a half-punch bowl green with the other half being a completely false-front. Its a little easier after they expanded the green 150% but still a tough approach and green to make any putts on.

Look from the tee...


And up to the green...


A look from a solid drive to the right-side of the fairway (~275 yards) at the second shot on the Par-Five #10 (Member's #1) for the Open. Very few if any will reach in two here but just about everyone will have a wedge in their hand for their 3rd shot unless the get stuck in the trees left off the tee. Small pond behind the large oak trees right of the green. Large green with some tough subtle reads in spots should provide some but not a ton of birdies here.


A good look at some of the rolling fairways and multiple elevations changes going up from the tee-box to this table-top landing area for the longer drives, down to the fairway, then back up to a large severely sloping front-to-back green at #13 (Members #4).



My favorite hole on the back (front) is #15 (Members #6). Its a short 340 yard par-4 where Ross brilliantly uses the hill in the foreground to push you right and the next hill in at the landing area to push you left (especially if you hit the drive right and are on the hill). Most of the ladies will hit their drives onto the hill left of the bunkers and have 125 yards in except it plays uphill 10-15 yards and if the wind is blowing and with an uphill lie it can play up to 30-40 yards more than the 125. (No joke) Most players don't play enough and have their ball roll down the severe slope in front of the green presenting a tough uphill chip. The green has deep nasty bunkers both left and right which present a tough up and down as well. This hole has averaged the highest score above par among the members over summers when they have kept track and it will be interesting to see how the ladies fair on it.





#17 (Member's #8) is going to be a monster and I am pretty sure the best damn hole at the Women's Open. It will make for some awesome T.V. as well. The ladies will be playing it from a new tee-box that the USGA requested which will put them 430 yards out. This hole has gotten the most out of the renovation by Prichard as well. The two bunkers on the left were pulled out into the fairway and now really make the golfer think from the tee which also pushes you to the right. You used to be able to just bang a 3-wood (for men) out to about 160 out. Now with the bunkers pulled in that play is gone so you either have to hit hybrid short or crush a drive over the bunker. At 430 the distances to the bunkers will be 270 to the first on the left and 275-280 to the one on the right. If the ladies lay-up short of the one on the left they leave themselves 190-210 in uphill. Otherwise it will be about a 290-300 carry over the bunker on the left and if you play to the right you will need to stay short of that bunker as well as now most balls roll to the back of it nicely behind a finger or lip. Now thats just the drive. The approach deceptively plays about 10 yards uphill and is to a green severely sloping back-to-front with a channel on the right side of the green from back-to-front. Johnny Miller openly trashed this green during the Solheim (said the only missing was a windmill and a clowns mouth) because you can very easily putt right off the front of it 10-15 yards back down the fairway. I believe this hole will have about a 4.85 average score for the tournament which could be higher than the par-5 18th (Member's #9)





#18 (Member's 9) will be a very fun finishing hole with probably the most birdies and a handful of eagles to boot. It will be a lot of fun watching the last two holes as the players give a few back on #17 and are able to try and get them back on 18.



Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Sean_A

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2008, 02:03:50 AM »
Patrick

There are several holes which look intriguing.  The members' 10th looks very wild for a Ross green.  Do you have any pix of the greens?

Thanks for posting.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2008, 02:20:55 AM »
The 10th is a great green with a lot of subtleties on the back part of it. Definitely one of the greens that is hard to read if you haven't seen a lot of it.

It was overcast for most of the day so greens pics don't show much of the undulation but here are two the first from behind #2 (Member's 11) and behind #13 (Member's 4).





Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Greg Krueger

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2008, 09:29:44 AM »
Patrick, thank you so much for the pictures, one of my top 5 favorite courses!!!

Jason Topp

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2008, 09:33:13 AM »
Patrick:

Nice pictures.  My favorite holes not pictured are 2 (members 11), 5 (members 14), 7 (members 16) and 13 (members 4).  Any pictures demonstrating those holes?

Why do you think 17 (members 8) is the best hole on the course?  It may be one of the tougher holes, but I think of it as a drive in the middle of the fairway and an iron to the green.

In the Solheim Cup, it was interesting to see how badly the players struggled with relatively modest rough.  I saw several iron shots barely get off the ground.  My guess is that the rough will be much thicker this time with the wet spring.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2008, 09:38:53 AM »
Patrick:

Wonderful photos. I played the course last summer and enjoyed it immensely. Brian Silva did some wonderful work there.

Another example of the women playing cooler courses than the men.


Anthony


Dan Kelly

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 09:45:58 AM »
I agree with Jason. No. 8 (tournament 17) is not even among my top nine favorites! It's got a vicious green, but ... what else?

Patrick -- Do you have a picture of the No. 2 (tournament 11) green? It's a viciously sloping, long and skinny little thing -- unlike any green I've ever played, I think.

I love, and have always loved, the look of No. 16. Don't know how interesting it plays -- but I gather it requires a crisply hit second with a shortish iron. And I like short par-4s that require such a shot.

Isn't No. 17 a sort of downhill, reverse "Redan" -- more than No. 13 is a Redan? Seems to me (I haven't seen No. 13 since 1993) that the play to 13 was all-aerial, whereas the perfect play to No. 17 often involves landing the ball short left.

I, too, really like No. 6.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Wright

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 10:45:23 AM »
I played Interlachen last year for the first and only time. One thing's for sure--the ladies and the senior men (Broadmoor) will have big-time challenges on the greens during their US Opens. As a first time player, I found the sloped, well guarded greens really intimidating, and I suspect that, while fast, they weren't US Open fast. Interlachen isn't a long course, but it requires precise placement and accuracy on the approaches--vintage Ross!

I really liked the course. My favorite holes were:

The downhill par 3 par-3 4th (Members' 13th) (pictured above). I agree with Dan that the 8th (Members' 17th) is more Redan-like than the 4th (13th). 4 (13) requires an exacting mid iron shot to a well bunkered green. Note: I was told that until recently the water behind the green was totally obscured by trees. A little tree-removal went a very long way here. 

The par 4  15th (Member's 6th) (pictured above). There are several similar holes at Interlachen (e.g. the adjacent #1--Member's 10th, which plays in the opposite direction), but the cant of the fairway here makes this hole quite interesting. In fact, the rolling nature of a large part of the property is a significant feature.

The par 5 13th (Members' 4th). Although the par 5s aren't the strongest part of Interlachen, they require decent shotmaking. This hole is good because the second shot is challenging--it needs to be straight to avoid water L-R and is important to set up a shortish third to a large sloping green.

My one criticism of Interlachen is that there is a lot of similarity between the short/medium and longer par 4s. For example longer par 4 holes 5, 6 and 17 (Members' 14, 15 and 8) seemed very similar to me. Same with the short par 4s 11 and 7 (Members' 2 and 16). I had to look at a map to remember some of the holes, which in my opinion is not a good sign--one ought to be able to recall every hole on a great course even with a single playing.

I'm not a fan of #9 (Members' 18). I think the green is just too severe.

It will be a fine test for the women the end of this month.   
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Dan Kelly

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2008, 12:54:42 PM »
My one criticism of Interlachen is that there is a lot of similarity between the short/medium and longer par 4s. For example longer par 4 holes 5, 6 and 17 (Members' 14, 15 and 8) seemed very similar to me. Same with the short par 4s 11 and 7 (Members' 2 and 16). I had to look at a map to remember some of the holes, which in my opinion is not a good sign--one ought to be able to recall every hole on a great course even with a single playing.

I'm not a fan of #9 (Members' 18). I think the green is just too severe.

Maybe all of those litigious 36-handicappers distracted you!

I have yet to play Interlachen, but can easily see how 8, 14, and 15 might blur together a bit. As a spectator, imagining playing them, I thought they were the three least compelling holes on the course (along with the par-3 No. 5, outside Carl Pohlad's living room).

I don't think, by contrast, that Nos. 2 and 16 are at all alike, really. They're certainly very different-looking holes, over very different topography (one mostly flat; the other uphill all the way). One has a skinny, deep green open in front; the other is roundish and ringed with bunkers.

As for 18: I saw one of the greatest golf shots of my life there, during the 93 Walker Cup. In alternate-shot, Tim Herron and John Harris were partners. Herron drove it down the middle -- and Harris proceeded to hit one of the worst short-irons pulls you've ever seen in your life. If any of us had hit it, we'd have been just as disgusted as Harris was. The ball ended up in the trees left of the green. Herron studied the trees and the sky and then hit an UNBELIEVABLE flop wedge into a wee opening; the ball anded like Sam Snead's proverbial sore-legged butterfly, somewhere above the hole, and then slowly, slowly, slowly crept back down the green and stopped a few feet above the hole. Harris made the putt to win the match. So I'm biased by my nostalgia, but I'd be disappointed if they markedly softened that green.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Stamm

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2008, 01:42:42 PM »
Patrick, thank you for posting these. Interlachen is a course I've wanted to learn about.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

RJ_Daley

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2008, 02:47:20 PM »
Have any of you researchers of old classic era courses seen many photos of Interlachen back in the day?  There are probably many photos available, I just don't have the inclination to start looking now.  But, my question would be, were the greens mowed collar length for a greater wide perimeter back in the day?  From the photos, I'm wondering what the course would play and appear like regarding approach shots, if their were short cut shoulders out say 10 more ft.  It does look fabulous, however.  I sure would love to do a hit and run.   But, Carl P hasn't sent the invite yet...  ;D ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2008, 03:38:26 PM »
Patrick:

Nice pictures.  My favorite holes not pictured are 2 (members 11), 5 (members 14), 7 (members 16) and 13 (members 4).  Any pictures demonstrating those holes?

Why do you think 17 (members 8) is the best hole on the course?  It may be one of the tougher holes, but I think of it as a drive in the middle of the fairway and an iron to the green.

In the Solheim Cup, it was interesting to see how badly the players struggled with relatively modest rough.  I saw several iron shots barely get off the ground.  My guess is that the rough will be much thicker this time with the wet spring.

BTW I believe I have erroneously been giving the resoration credit to Ron Prichard who did Minnikhada when in fact it was Brian Silva who restored Interlachen.

Ask and you shall receive.

13 (M. #4) is posted above twice.

As for #2 (M. 11)




As for #5 (M. 14) from just right of the fairway 200 yards out.


As for #7 (M.16) This hole benefitted the most from the changes along with 17(M.8 ) in terms of getting the player to think. The fairway bunkers come much more into play and are all very tough.





As for why 17 (M. 8 ) will be the "best" hole at the Open I guess I meant it will be the toughest for the women I think. Isn't that what makes the Open the best tournament? Its toughness? In that regard 17 will be the best hole at Interlachen imo. I also want to stress that the changes they made greatly improve this hole and the strategy it now takes from the tee. Its not the drive to the middle of the fairway you remember Jason which is kind of what I tried to lay-out in my earlier post.

The rough is just plain nasty. I believe its going to get to 4 inches for ten feet off the fairwau and then 6 inches or something like that. You are going to see a lot of the wayward hitters off the tee struggle and a lot of full swings produce 20 yard shots.

I agree with Jason. No. 8 (tournament 17) is not even among my top nine favorites! It's got a vicious green, but ... what else?

Patrick -- Do you have a picture of the No. 2 (tournament 11) green? It's a viciously sloping, long and skinny little thing -- unlike any green I've ever played, I think.

I love, and have always loved, the look of No. 16. Don't know how interesting it plays -- but I gather it requires a crisply hit second with a shortish iron. And I like short par-4s that require such a shot.

Isn't No. 17 a sort of downhill, reverse "Redan" -- more than No. 13 is a Redan? Seems to me (I haven't seen No. 13 since 1993) that the play to 13 was all-aerial, whereas the perfect play to No. 17 often involves landing the ball short left.

I, too, really like No. 6.

Dan I think you are right that 8(M. 17) plays more of a reverse redan with the ground game being a good play there as I mentioned before. However the aerial shot usually isn't penalized (as long as you can get a 3-iron to sit relatively soon) and I think that the best play to a front or middle pin on 4 (M. 13) is one you get to roll on to the green from the small entrance front-right as a lot of aerial shots end up rolling off to the right and to the back. They are probably both half-redan's if you guys will forgive my creative license.

Pictures of 11 (M. 2) are here but unfortunately its the one green that had some winter kill on it so it had a temp pin.





11+15 (M. 2+6) I would agree are the best most classic Ross holes ICC has to offer. You learn something new every time you see/play it.

I played Interlachen last year for the first and only time. One thing's for sure--the ladies and the senior men (Broadmoor) will have big-time challenges on the greens during their US Opens. As a first time player, I found the sloped, well guarded greens really intimidating, and I suspect that, while fast, they weren't US Open fast. Interlachen isn't a long course, but it requires precise placement and accuracy on the approaches--vintage Ross!

I really liked the course. My favorite holes were:

The downhill par 3 par-3 4th (Members' 13th) (pictured above). I agree with Dan that the 8th (Members' 17th) is more Redan-like than the 4th (13th). 4 (13) requires an exacting mid iron shot to a well bunkered green. Note: I was told that until recently the water behind the green was totally obscured by trees. A little tree-removal went a very long way here. 

The par 4  15th (Member's 6th) (pictured above). There are several similar holes at Interlachen (e.g. the adjacent #1--Member's 10th, which plays in the opposite direction), but the cant of the fairway here makes this hole quite interesting. In fact, the rolling nature of a large part of the property is a significant feature.

The par 5 13th (Members' 4th). Although the par 5s aren't the strongest part of Interlachen, they require decent shotmaking. This hole is good because the second shot is challenging--it needs to be straight to avoid water L-R and is important to set up a shortish third to a large sloping green.

My one criticism of Interlachen is that there is a lot of similarity between the short/medium and longer par 4s. For example longer par 4 holes 5, 6 and 17 (Members' 14, 15 and 8) seemed very similar to me. Same with the short par 4s 11 and 7 (Members' 2 and 16). I had to look at a map to remember some of the holes, which in my opinion is not a good sign--one ought to be able to recall every hole on a great course even with a single playing.

I'm not a fan of #9 (Members' 18). I think the green is just too severe.

It will be a fine test for the women the end of this month.   

Doug you are correct the trees taken down behind #4 (M. 13) were maybe the best they took out. The hole is fantastic now with the water in the background.

9 (M. 18 ) is indeed severe. Thats why its a shame its not the finishing hole and probably why I love it. They did add about 30-50% more green and 25% or so is usuable (well sort of usable, maybe hittable is better) on the back part of the green which is a punch-bowl. Still very tough par here.

As to 5, 6, and 17 (M. 14, 15, 8 ) being similar I probably have to disagree. Maybe I have been out there just too much but those holes each offer some very different looks from the tee. I guess the second shots are similar, a longer iron to a very back-to-front sloping green, but one looks downhill but plays level, the other is downhill slightly, and the third looks level but plays uphill. In my biased opinion the reason Interlachen is a great course is that each hole has its own character that you learn more about every time you play it.  Again though probably just my biased opinion.

Have any of you researchers of old classic era courses seen many photos of Interlachen back in the day?  There are probably many photos available, I just don't have the inclination to start looking now.  But, my question would be, were the greens mowed collar length for a greater wide perimeter back in the day?  From the photos, I'm wondering what the course would play and appear like regarding approach shots, if their were short cut shoulders out say 10 more ft.  It does look fabulous, however.  I sure would love to do a hit and run.   But, Carl P hasn't sent the invite yet...  ;D ::)

I'll second that call. Maybe I can go to the library and look to find some old newspapers from around the time Jones won the open. I have seen a few and there are barely any trees when he won in 1930.


Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Greg Krueger

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 10:26:51 AM »
Thought I would bump this up with the Women's Open going on. Patrick, how about posting some more pics?

John_Conley

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2008, 04:45:01 PM »
Greg, let the young man get married!

rjsimper

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2008, 05:10:19 PM »
Curious as to the playing season at Interlachen...

Very impressive in photo and on television too...

John_Conley

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2008, 05:14:09 PM »
Curious as to the playing season at Interlachen...


Weather?

April 15 to Halloween.  An extra week or two if lucky.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 07:20:58 PM »
Have any of you researchers of old classic era courses seen many photos of Interlachen back in the day?  There are probably many photos available, I just don't have the inclination to start looking now.  But, my question would be, were the greens mowed collar length for a greater wide perimeter back in the day?  From the photos, I'm wondering what the course would play and appear like regarding approach shots, if their were short cut shoulders out say 10 more ft.  It does look fabulous, however.  I sure would love to do a hit and run.   But, Carl P hasn't sent the invite yet...  ;D ::)

I'm keen to see then vs. now if anyone can do.

Thanks for posting, Patrick, and congrats.

Mark

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 08:24:11 PM »
Great pics!  I love what I'm seeing on TV...

What do you think of the RTJ green complexes versus the original Ross designs?  Any chance that you'll restore them to "Ross" eventually?

John_Conley

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 08:40:12 PM »
Dan, I didn't see the course until about 1983.  Jones moved the green on #1 and made it a par 5.  There is no "Ross" to restore.  I think the same is true on #9.  (Note - nines are reversed for this tournament which makes it difficult for us that remember the normal setup.)

Doak's "Confidential Guide" named Interlachen one of the "best evolved" courses or something like that.  What I think that means is that it works today even though it has been changed over time.  Geoffrey Cornish came out once and recontoured the fairways in about 1985.  Various holes have seen the hill before the green as fairway and rough depending upon the year.  Jones re-did a couple holes.

The course you probably will find has more of the "Ross" left is neighboring Minikahda.

One other thing...there is an old b&w picture somewhere of the space between the fairways of 6 and 10 that shows some pretty obnoxious chocolate drops.  That's a Ross feature that looked horrible.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 09:02:26 PM »
John - thanks for the info.

I noted the RTJ work becuase they mentioned it on the US Women's Open telecast - how the RTJ greens were quite a bit different than what you'd typically consider a "Ross" green.

I love the line of a very fine architect that has done some very successful Ross restorations - "We're just trying to put the Ross back into the course".

But I'd be thrilled if I were wrong.  I REALLY like what I'm seeing on TV.  It's nice to get out of our typical Boston-NYC-Philly-DC parochialism ;)

John_Conley

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Re: Interlachen C.C. (Pics)
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2008, 09:27:23 PM »
Dan, it is a wonderful course.  Having caddied and worked there for years I know every blade of grass.  I grew up knowing it was "a Donald Ross" design.  But I saw so many changes first hand over a decade that I think it is guesswork to assume people know what he intended.

I've seen photos from 1930 and Bobby Jones won the Open playing between saplings.  Today those trees are big.

I mentioned the chocolate drops from before WWII that are no longer there.  I remember bunkers that were filled in.  Slopes in front of holes 4, 6, 12, and 18 (member numbers, adjust by 9 for Open numbers) were sometimes cut as fairway and other times as rough.

Minikahda was recently 'restored' and it turned out great.  Interlachen is great too, but it doesn't look like Minikahda today.