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Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« on: June 23, 2008, 03:43:24 PM »
It seems to me for the better part of 30 years Pete Dye was a controversial designer. Not just because his style broke from convention, but because he would create controversial features and holes...you know, those love/hate type features.  Features that come to mind are the short, blind par 4's, the 5 story green at Carmel Valley ranch, the multi-storied bunker behind the 3rd green of The golf club, using trees at Blackwolf run on the par 3 13th...etc etc.

It seems to me that the last 10 years or so of his career have not produce many of his unique love or hate features. The only one coming to mind is that bunker built into the mound on the front right of the par 3 17th at whistling straits. Interestingly enough, that hole might be one of his best par 3's ever.

Can anyone name any controversial features found on his courses in the last 10 or 15 years?

*edit: I just thought of the blind par 3 at the Irish course at whistling Straits.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 03:53:55 PM by matt kardash »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Jay Flemma

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2008, 03:46:39 PM »
I'll let you know tomorrow.  I'm seeing him at Pound Ridge.

Chris_Clouser

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2008, 03:47:49 PM »
I have one that few on here have probably seen.  I hate the 12th hole at Plum Creek here in Carmel, IN.  The hole has a huge risk/reward feature that I can appreciate but I think it is so unappealing from a visual perspective that it just ruins the hole for me.  But I know several people that think it is the best par 5 they play.  

Chris_Clouser

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2008, 03:48:15 PM »
Jay,

Tell him I hate that hole.  I'm sure he will care.   ::)

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2008, 04:03:53 PM »
Many of the items that were controversial when Dye began are no longer controversial because his work changed the thinking of many in the golf world.

If you're asking about why he didn't continue to push the envelope, I don't know that there was/is a need to in order to build good golf courses.  He did what he thought was best and it worked well for him and his time - pushing the envelope may be good for music but in GCA more success seems to be found in a return to classic features moreso than going over-the-top.

I'm not even sure that Dye's intent was ever to be controversial...just to build what he felt was the best golf course possible and not worrying about convention in making that decision.  Today's controversy (well, of the last 10 years maybe) is back-to-back par 3s at Pacific Dunes, not a green entirely surrounded by water.


Also, I don't know the numbers, but remember that as he got older Dye had his hands directly on fewer and fewer of the courses with his company's name on it...so one might argue that Perry or PB are less bold than Dad.

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2008, 04:26:21 PM »
My experiences with the Dyes and Dye courses in general is that PB Dye is truly the envelope-pusher.  One need only see some of his crazy green complexes at places like the PB Dye Golf Club in Maryland, Olde Cypress in Naples, or Playa Paraiso south of Cancun to see this sensibility.  OR--similar (perhaps not quite as radical) examples at PB--Pete collaborations, where it was PB on-site the vast majority of the time.  I cite examples such as West Bay Club, in Estero, FL, or Harbour Ridge, in Stuart, FL. 

Jay Flemma

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2008, 04:39:26 PM »
Jay,

Tell him I hate that hole.  I'm sure he will care.   ::)

I'm on it.  Check your IM BTW...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 06:30:55 PM »
I think it would be pretty much impossible to KEEP BEING controversial for an extended period of 25-30 years ... unless you are just trying to upset people deliberately, instead of trying to formulate your own original style of design.

Nick Pozaric

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 06:35:07 PM »
wait till you see the volcano bunkers at the Dye course at French Lick :)

Matt Varney

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 07:20:20 PM »
We are working on 2 new golf course projects in Tennessee with Pete & P.B. Dye.   I feel that we are creating a great collection of golf holes on our courses.  Rarity Mountain is awesome with some great contours, strategic bunkering and green complexes that are very fair but, require a good angle into the holes to get it close.

I personally think controversial can be a good thing in course design as long as those golf holes that are labeled controversial still allow you to make par.  I have seen some crazy looking golf holes from the tee and wicked approach shots into greens that are almost impossible to putt if they get above 10 on the stimp.

I would invite anyone on GCA to come take a look this Fall at Rarity Mountain and see what we have created workign with the Dye's.  All they asked for in the beginning was let us create good golf holes and they didn't want to be locked into a specific routing.  I think they have done one hell of a job and the grassing is starting to really show the quality of the design.
 

Matt Varney

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2008, 07:51:56 PM »
Take a look at this slideshow link and you all tell me what you think about the courses Dye is creating in 2008.  We have a really good piece of property for our Rarity Rivers project that will have a Pete & P.B Dye course with less rock and more rolling meadows and wooded terrain.

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn49/mdvarney/Dye%20Course%20June%202008/?albumview=slideshow

I will keep updating these images regulary throughout the summer.


Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2008, 07:56:10 PM »
Matt;

You can prove or disprove my theory right now.  To this point in construction, I would bet you've had PB on the ground to a factor of 80--90% compared to Pete, who I assume is dedicating most of his time to French Lick.

Am I on or off base with this assessment?


Matt Varney

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2008, 08:08:12 PM »
Joel,

Pete has been very involved making multiple site visits to the property and he never wants to ride in an off-road utility vehicle always walks.  P.B. has been involved but, not much more than Pete and they work together very well.  P.B. will suggest something then Pete might change it or like it then they tweak it so they get the desired look and visual contours.  This happens hole after hole working with the dirt and the natural features. 

Pete is 82 years old he stands in the fairways and he gets into bunkers and says this is too tough we need to soften this contour and they discuss a plan and make it happen.  The Rarity Mountain course is very much a joint effort it in no way is a one sided design effort by only one guy like P.B.

From your previous post, I would agree that P.B. can push the envelope with railroad ties everywhere and wild contours all over the place including the greens.  Look at our green complexes we want a challenging course but, it must be fair and allow the golfer to play and score well if they are hitting it well.  This course will only stretch to about 7,200 yards but, the wind is in play on many holes because we are up in the mountains.  One last thing, we don't have a railroad tie on this golf course and we used natural stone from the property.

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2008, 08:18:21 PM »
That is great to hear.  Many other Pete-PB collaborations have been mostly PB, from what I've learned.  Glad to know your project has a much more equitable distribution of the workload.

Matt Varney

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2008, 08:23:30 PM »
Pete & P.B. worked together on The Honors Course back in 1983.  Our golf courses are in East Tennessee we had a strategy plan and we just hoped that they liked the property for our developments.  We have a really talented team of guys leading construction, finish shaping and grassing so you get what you pay for in this business.   

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2008, 08:27:38 PM »
Before I get too far into this post...

I despise the "Volcano" bunker.  WTF is that?

I think modern technology has made Dye's courses better if anything.  It would be interesting to see the modern day player attack his first--allegedly extremely difficult--iteration of TPC Sawgrass. :)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John Moore II

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2008, 09:18:37 PM »
I think the type of bunkers seen on PGA Dye holes #5 and #16 are controversial. I mean, ,they are in the center of the fairway with almost no chance of moving the ball forward to the green. Thats the kind of thing that makes people not like certain features.

JimFatsi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2008, 09:31:28 PM »
I'll let you know tomorrow.  I'm seeing him at Pound Ridge.

Jay let us know waht you think of Pound Ridge.  The grand opening is Tuesday June 24

Matt Varney

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2008, 10:49:12 PM »
Any from GCA going to the Pound Ridge opening tomorrow please take a camera so we can see some images of this new course.  You can see some on www.poundridgegolf.com but, I would like to see more of the tee shots and approach shots showing contours, bunkering and green complexes.


John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2008, 10:34:32 AM »
I have one that few on here have probably seen.  I hate the 12th hole at Plum Creek here in Carmel, IN.  The hole has a huge risk/reward feature that I can appreciate but I think it is so unappealing from a visual perspective that it just ruins the hole for me.  But I know several people that think it is the best par 5 they play.  

I like that hole   ;)

Unappealing from a visual perspective? The hole, or the stupid houses surrounding it? And is it really that much less visually meritorious than, say, some UK links courses?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2008, 11:17:51 AM »
Joel,

Could you elaborate on PB's work at Harbor Ridge?

All,

I think Pete's work has gotten slightly formatted. Having played the Ocean Course this past winter and then the Kampen Course at Purdue this past Saturday, there is a striking difference in the amount of orgionality.

Also, from my experiences I think Dye's best work comes from his attention to details. On lack-luster designs, the bunkers and slopes looked forced and mono toned, while at places like WS in Kohler each bunker has a personality of its own.

PCC
H.P.S.

Carl Rogers

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2008, 11:31:11 AM »
Is it more a function that the world of golf design has expanded or changed to see his work as more 'mainstream'?

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 11:53:54 AM »
And how one defines controversial.

Pete seems like the perfect contractor. He builds what the client wants.

If a hole like the second at Firethorn is an example of controversial, bring on more of it. Tony Chapman has a wonderful reason why.

As sad as it is, the flooding on the lower property at BWR might be an example of where a contractor should've just said "No!"
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Joel Zuckerman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 12:14:16 PM »
Could you elaborate on PB's work at Harbor Ridge?

Pat--Here is an excerpt from the Harbour Ridge chapter of my new Pete Dye Book--due in September.  This will hopefully give you a better flavor for the place:

River Ridge isn’t even 6,700 yards from the tips, but the slope rating is a sky-high 148.  The blue markers tip the scales at a seemingly anemic 6,200-and-change but are sloped at an ultra-formidable 142.  The white tees are pegged at a distance normally associated with red tees—less than 5,600 yards, yet with a 129 slope. And bear in mind there’s not a shot or two missing off the scorecard—it’s a regulation par-72 course.  The river views are limited to the par-4 third, a no-nonsense 420-yarder where only the most egregiously sliced tee shot or approach will end up in the riverbed.  But even as the course moves west, away from the water, the interest level remains high.  The subtle fairway ridges and undulations ensure that shots from the same general area will play very differently from day to day.  The awkward lies and stances aren’t limited to full shots. They are even more prevalent around the greens, where humps, hollows and bunkers of all shapes and depths lurk just steps from the putting surface, requiring both imagination and a deft touch with a high-lofted club.
While the panoramic river view is fleeting, wetlands encroaching on the fairways are an enduring fact on River Ridge--it’s a ball-eating track of the first order.  Not only are there numerous marshlands peppering the grounds, but many are environmentally protected areas, so hunting amidst the long grass for a wayward pellet is strictly verboten. 
Playing with a “danger-be-damned” attitude on this perilous little course will make for a long day of scorecard suffering.  The P.B. Dye influence is apparent as the round moves into its middle stages.  The younger of Pete and Alice’s two sons is known for building very demanding tracks. This course isn’t terrifying, but it is intimidating.  There’s a discomfort level in some of the approach shots over water, a tee ball that must sail over an extensive wetland, a well-placed bunker that gobbles up a seemingly ideal tee shot.  Are the members a gang of masochists? Seemingly not.  Though Pete Dye’s winter home in Delray Beach is in relative proximity, he’s almost never been called in for the tweaks and renovations, both minor and major, that he performs with regularity at other courses.  Apparently the members mindset is: If it ain’t broke, leave it be.


Matt Varney

Re: Has Dye stopped being controversial?
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2008, 12:38:14 PM »
ball-eating track and wayward pellet

These are great did you come up with these when writing your book?

Don't you think the theory behind Dye course designs is simple - Hit good shots and you get rewarded and if you don't you pay the price and get a unique experience trying to recover?