[David Lott]

We Americans go to Scotland, they welcome us to their private clubs and charge reasonable prices, but ask that we use guest tees.

The Scots come here, can't play private clubs without an introduction and an accompanying member at any price.

Who has more cause for complaint?

Who complains more?

[Dan King]

Tim Gavrich writes:
Yes, I want to be challenged.  But if the best way to do that is to hit a much shorter club off the tee, for example, in order to artificially give myself a longer shot into the green, doesn't that mean that the architecture doesn't provide for that?

No.

When I play golf courses for the first and possibly only time (or at least for a very long time), why would I want to hold myself back in order to give myself those longer shots?

For the challenge.

How many clubs did you carry?

The number of clubs is arbitrary. If you find the Old Course little challenge when only carrying five or six clubs try carrying fewer clubs. It seems really bizarre to me that you require a challenge from the course and are unwilling to change your own game to increase your own enjoyment. Take responsibility for yourself.

I'm out to shoot a score, not to mess around.

And this is what is wrong with yanks coming to the Old Sod and insisting they should get to play an American game when there. Try playing their game. Go out for enjoyment and leave the card and pencil at home. I know, you are just a kid and thinking of anything but the final score is totally foreign, but what better time to try something totally foreign than when you are in a foreign country. I'm betting you didn't even try the haggis.

If inserting a more varied challenge into the game was merely a matter of hitting shorter clubs off the tee, what point would there be in playing more than a couple courses ever?

So carry fewer clubs. The number of clubs is totally arbitrary.

I could just hit different clubs off the tee and force the golf course to be different.  It would also mean that the occupation of golf course architect could well become irrelevant, if players were left to create the challenge.

Hopefully this is a statement you will someday look back on and be very embarrassed about.

I do not intend to argue for special treatment for myself.

That is exactly what you have been arguing for.

I am trying to get to the bottom of why (it seems) all golfers of my approximate ability are barred from playing the longer tees.

They would rather not see their game Americanized. What is so wrong with that?

Cheers,
Dan King

Course built for 300 yard tee shot artists are not great course.
  --Peter Thompson

[Rich Goodale]

Chip

As others have noted above, it is possible to play the medal tees at Dornoch on a non-competition basis, but this is strictly controlled.  About 10-15 years ago I got a 16-year old Portugese hotshot (he had qualified and made the 36-hole cut at the Madiera Open, a Euro PGA event) off the medal tees and he didn't break 90.  It was as embarrassing to him as to me.  In the afternoon, he played off the visitors tees and shot 68.

Tim

1.  Listen to Dan.  He speaks the truth.
2.  Members have the opportunity to play the Medal tees at their club in competitions anywhere from 4-10 times a month, so when the Club Championship comes along, they are well versed in the challenges facing them.
3.  Even you can play the medal tees in competition in Scotland at most of the good and great courses, if you plan your vacation carefully to include days when courses have Open competitions.  If you really want to test your game, get your handicap down to +1 or +2 and play events like the St. Andrews Links Trophy (Old and New Courses) or the East of Scotland Amateur (Lunidn Links).  If you shoot 71/72 in those events you will be on the Walker Cup selection commitee's radar screen.

Learn and Enjoy!

Rich

[Doug Siebert]

I found it rather hit and miss which tees I could play from on courses there.  Some gave me no choice but to play from the guest tees, some let me play from wherever I wanted, some I had to show my handicap certificate and some I couldn't play up because I was with my dad and he wouldn't have been playing the same tees.

I have to agree with whoever pointed out that if these courses were in the US we wouldn't be having this debate because places like ANGC, PV, CPC, NGLA etc. don't allow random guys like me to play from any tees!  So its hard to whine all that much if TOC tells you to play from the guest tees.

Obviously the more "touristy" courses like Kingsbarns and Turnberry don't really care what tees you play from, they are only concerned that your group keeps up so they can keep the dollars (quickly converted to pounds before they lose more value) rolling in.  But even Turnberry had a few of the Open tees unmowed as a way to prevent play from them.  I liked how Muirfield did things, when I played there all the par 4s were played from the Open tees, and the par 5s were played one set up (the par 3s were a mix)  I don't know if its always that way or they vary it so if you arrived on another day you might have played all the par 5s back and some of the par 4s up.  I ended up playing a course that was about 200 yards shorter than the Open course but one stroke less par (the 9th was a 465 yard par 4 instead of a 505 yard par 5, and plays more difficult because of the location of the bunkers and the turn of the dogleg)

I would certainly enjoy playing there a bit more if I could play the same course they play in the Open, and while I'm not a plus handicap like some here I'm competent enough and certainly long enough to play from those tees, and I move fast enough that I wouldn't delay play for those behind me.  But I recognize that a large majority of Americans visiting would also want to play from those tees, and on average are less competent, shorter and slower than I am, so it would be a disaster to allow anyone who asks to play from those tees.  Showing a handicap card is no barrier since there's nothing stopping someone from making up scores to get an "official" handicap card that shows him a scratch when he actually can't break 100, and it would be ugly if the starter at TOC could dispute your status if he didn't like the look of your tee shot -- at least based on the stories I've heard from some pretty good golfers here getting nervous and hitting stinkers off that tee!

[Doug Siebert]

Rich,

When I was in Scotland in 1991 with my dad we had a 3PM tee time in Dornoch but were staying in the St. Andrews area.  We drove up there and I insisted on stopping at Loch Ness just because I wanted to see it and we probably stayed a bit longer than we should.  Then he managed to get lost from there on the way to Dornoch and we missed our tee time by nearly an hour.

Fortunately they got us off when we arrived with no difficulty as it was not busy that day, and I asked if I could play from the medal tees and showed my handicap card as I had at other courses there.  I was told that I could do so but if a member saw me and objected I would have to play from the guest tees from then on.  No one saw me or at least no one objected so my one and only round there was from the medal tees.

And I easily broke 90 that day (it was breezy but certainly not gale force windy) but there's no way in hell I could have shot anywhere near 68 from the guest tees (or probably even the women's tees for that matter) so I think you may be overstating the difference in difficulty between those tees a wee bit

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim Gavrich writes:

...

I am trying to get to the bottom of why (it seems) all golfers of my approximate ability are barred from playing the longer tees.

They would rather not see their game Americanized. What is so wrong with that?

Cheers,
Dan King

Course built for 300 yard tee shot artists are not great course.
  --Peter Thompson

Reef--

I would have played the Craighead, but it was closed.  It was unfortunate timing, really; I was intrigued by Gil Hanse's French Creek in PA, and was looking forward to playing another of his courses.  I looked around and quite liked what I saw.

Dan King--

I personally like the "Americanized" version of the game, as it was the one I grew up with.  Maybe I've been indoctrinated into cheapening the game into "card and pencil," in your eyes, but I have always found the most enjoyment in the game from playing against par.  Yes, it's nice once in a while to go out and hit crazy shots and different clubs once in a while to practice my shotmaking and tune my creativity (in fact, it prepared me for a lot of shots I hit this week), but if there's no scoring system, it's no much of a game/sport, is it?  It would seem more of an activity.  I don't object to this every once in a while on a course I've seen many times, but if I'm playing that course once, I'll be playing American golf 10 out of 10 times.  Otherwise, I'll feel like I've lost a good opportunity to enjoy the course the best way I know how.  I hope that doesn't make me a boorish American.  There are too many of those.  In the end, it appears that we'll have to agree to disagree about which type of golf we prefer.

Cheers.

PS: I did try haggis, and I loved it.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thank goodness for Mr. Bonnar injecting some sense in to this thread.

Tim Gavrich has made some very valid points and been shot down by some ridiculous statements...

Allowing no play from the White Tees outside Medal play is outdated. I am fond of traditions perhaps more than most but I find this one a step too far.... Clubs should be open minded enough to make a judgement call on which golfers can play off which tees, whilst still managing the slow play problem.

[Mark Chaplin]

There are some good comments on this post, as a Board member of a Championship links I'll throw in my perspective.

UK courses generally get far more play than private US courses, on my recent trip to the USA I played several clubs with between 100-250 members and no unaccompanied play, therefore the is a huge difference in the number of rounds per year and wear when compared with our 800 members and visitor play.

Often medal tees are new extensions to cope with the new clubs and balls and built to a limited size to save cost.

Certainly at St Andrews pace of play is very relevent, it is more like a people moving exercise, look at TOC ballot and the timings will see the final groups finishing as it gets dark. Add 20 minutes to a group playing off the stones earlier in the day and the final groups will not finish.

If you want to play off the stones at a top club, write to the secretary, with respect to Mark he will not have to go to the committee to get permission. Offer to take a caddie or play with a member, if you are very gifted the club may arrange for a good club member to play with you.....not necessarily a young buck at Deal we have three seniors of 3 or less handicap and that's a local handicap so they're pretty sharp!  

If all else fails celebrate the fact you are playing golf on a world class links for a couple of hundred dollars and your there because your welcome and not because your uncle knows someone whose lawyer has a friend who can get you a game on the course a mile from your front door!

[James Boon]

Its fair to say that we are lucky over here in that most great courses that we want to play will allow us to at some time or other.

I would happily play a round on NGLA, Pine Valley or Cypress Point off the very front tees, just to be able to experience the place...

[Mark Pearce]

Tim,

I'm familiar with all the courses you played.  I'd pretty much agree with your ranking but with one exception.  I'd have Scotscraig last of those 6.  What was it about Scotscraig that you preferred to the 4 courses you found it superior to?

[Tim Gavrich]

Mark--

I really like the setting of it, and the rugged nature of many of the holes.  I thought that #5 is a great long par 4, #7 is a really interesting risk-reward tee shot and a cool approach to the green.  The back nine isn't as good as the front (the land isn't as interesting), but I really liked #14 and #16 as par 5s, and 18 returned back to land more typical of the front side.  Also, I quite liked the greens on #s 8, 9, and 15 in particular.  Also, it was the most difficult course we played, and it held my attention in that regard very well.  Great routing too--I am extremely impressed that a 6700 yard golf course fits so comfortably on just 106 acres.

[Dan King]

Tim Gavrich writes:
I personally like the "Americanized" version of the game, as it was the one I grew up with.

That's fine. I think you are missing out on much of what golf has to offer, but it isn't my concern. My concern is you went to a foreign country and complained the golf there wasn't more like the Americanized version. I don't understand the point of traveling to see more of the same.

but if there's no scoring system, it's no much of a game/sport, is it?  It would seem more of an activity.

Call it what ever you want. Hopefully someday you will learn to leave the card and pencil at home and learn how much fun golf can be.

I don't object to this every once in a while on a course I've seen many times, but if I'm playing that course once, I'll be playing American golf 10 out of 10 times.  Otherwise, I'll feel like I've lost a good opportunity to enjoy the course the best way I know how.

And I gave you a suggestion of how to do that. Bring your card and pencil along but leave a bunch of clubs at home. You are neither the first or last person to shoot a 71 or better at Lundin. You'll have something to feel proud of if you shoot 71 with five clubs. That shows creativity. Practice shooting at targets enough and anyone can get good at it. It takes a different perspective to be able to do it with less clubs than others.

I hope that doesn't make me a boorish American.  There are too many of those.

Perhaps wanting to play your Americanized game on foreign soil doesn't make you boorish, but if you look up boorish American in Websters you will see a picture of an American complaining about foreign hosts not accommodating their tastes.

In the end, it appears that we'll have to agree to disagree about which type of golf we prefer.

I've learned to accept the world will not change to accommodate me. There are a limited number of places in the world that allow for the game I prefer. You have a huge number of courses that accommodate your game, and yet you complain when a few will not. Lets agree to disagree and leave well enough alone.

PS: I did try haggis, and I loved it.

Wasn't that more fun than eating an egg mcmuffin? Why not take a shot at playing a bit of different golf while you travel also?

Cheers,
Dan King

The emblem on the necktie reserved for the members of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews -- The Vatican of golf -- is of St. Andrew himself bearing the saltire cross on which, once he was captured at Patras, he was to be stretched before he was crucified. Only the Scots would have thought of celebrating a national game with the figure of a tortured saint.
 --Alister Cooke

[Matt_Cohn]

Tim Gavrich writes:

Wasn't that more fun than eating an egg mcmuffin? Why not take a shot at playing a bit of different golf while you travel also?

It seems to me like he did take a shot at it - and, for some understandable reasons, encountered some things he didn't like as much. What's wrong with that?

[Dan King]

Matt_Cohn writes:
It seems to me like he did take a shot at it - and, for some understandable reasons, encountered some things he didn't like as much. What's wrong with that?

He states he wanted to play Americanized golf in Scotland. He tried to play his card and pencil game and wanted the courses to accommodate his game rather than changing his game to accommodate their courses.

Cheers,
Dan King

You have to play golf in Scotland. What else is there to do there? Wear a skirt?
  --George Low

[Matt_Cohn]

Overall, I found links golf to be a lot of fun above all else.  Not being able to play many full shots puts quite a premium on one's touch around the greens.  As a player with a weaker short than long game, I nonetheless surprised myself at times with a few long chip-and-run shots around the greens; getting up and down on #11 at TOC out of Hill (you know, the one Bobby Jones got really fed up in ) bunker was a lot of fun too! 

.... I had a wonderful time, and can't wait to return.

Dan,

First of all, it sounds like he happily changed his game to accommodate the courses and enjoyed his trip thoroughly. But I don't know, I wasn't there.

Second - by Americanized, you mean card-and-pencil? OK, fine. But he's not just going to Europe to play a match against his dad. He's going there for the golf courses specifically. Not being able to play "all of it" probably feels the same as if he could only play 17 of the holes.

If you can honestly say that you'd be perfectly happy to play the ladies tees during your only round at a once-in-a-lifetime course, then you're a better man than either Tim or me. But that's how Tim probably felt - I've experienced that feeling too - and I can understand his slight disappointment.

For what it's worth, I believe that he can feel both slightly disappointed and massively grateful at the same time, and probably does.

[Dan King]

Reading back over this thread, I have been hyper-critical of young Tim Gavrich. Tim, I am sorry. You asked a legitimate question, and as usual it turned into something else.

Back to the topic, I much prefer Scottish golf to Americanized golf. I hate to see the Scots bringing over any of American golf. I personally think multiple tees are a symptom of the American card and pencil mentality. Americans believe every one should face similar challenges to reach par regardless of their ability. The Scots -- generally -- supply the course and let you make of it what you want. On another thread there is talk in America of setting up courses with varied tee markers, so the course would change daily. This won't work in America because most golfers want a score at the end of the round they can compare to previous scores. They can not have fun at golf without a number at the end of their round.

I suggested Tim play at TOC with only five or six clubs. I fail to see why that suggestion is not an appropriate answer to his problem of insufficient challenge at a course like TOC.

Cheers,
Dan King

I think I see a free and independent kingdom delivering up that, which all the world has been fighting for since the days of Nimrod; yes, that for which most of all the empires, kingdoms, states, principalities, and dukedoms of Europe are at this time engaged in the most bloody and cruel wars that ever were, to wit,  to wit, a power to manage their own affairs by themselves, without the assistance and councel of any other.
 --Lord Belhaven, Debate on the Act of Union, Scottish Parliament 1707

[Brent Hutto]

Dan,

When I took up the game a decade or so ago, I received lots of friendly counsel as to what it meant to be a "golfer". A surprising amount of in-person advice as well as plenty of written instructional materials included the prescription that it is never too early to start keeping a strict scorecard according to the Rules of Golf and accounting for every stroke properly so you could know your (medal) score at the end of every round.

Now of course there was always an implicit allowance for a total novice playing his or her first round or second or third. And sometimes there was additional advice to consider spending ones time at the driving range for a few weeks or months until such time as one could play a strictly-accounted stroke-play round without unduly delaying the play of others with whom the course is shared.

But the key thing was the indoctrination that I received to the effect that no activity on a golf course was legitimate if it failed to accumulate a score, no matter how large the number and no matter even if the beginner was playing alone. It took me several years to realize that such indoctrination was in fact bullshit. The purpose of the game is not to produce a verifiable accounting of every stroke, penalty and/or handicap system approximation to the same every time one sets foot on a golf course. And the worth of a golfer is not measured by how closely he or she adheres to this Every Stroke is Sacred ideal.

I wonder if that message is passed on to newcomers in other cultures or if a peculiarly American abomination. One of my regular Saturday morning playing companions and I played a hot, steamy back nine this past weekend and neither of us had much of a golf swing or a short game working. So the game for that nine was to see who could score the most pars (birdies would count double). We ended up with two pars apiece and it came down to his putt on the last green to see if he could make me buy the drinks afterward (he missed). We picked up on hole after hole with absolutely no remorse once par was no longer in play, with perhaps a cursory attempt at any makable-looking bogey putt.

Was our little game not "golf"? Are my buddy and I somehow less worthy "golfers" than some other twosome on the course putting out for their triples and recording a Tournament-worthy medal score to be typed into the computer at the end of the day?

In my opinion the Game of Golf is not reducible to a two or three-digit number

[Jed Peters]

Reading back over this thread, I have been hyper-critical of young Tim Gavrich. Tim, I am sorry. You asked a legitimate question, and as usual it turned into something else.

Back to the topic, I much prefer Scottish golf to Americanized golf. I hate to see the Scots bringing over any of American golf. I personally think multiple tees are a symptom of the American card and pencil mentality. Americans believe every one should face similar challenges to reach par regardless of their ability. The Scots -- generally -- supply the course and let you make of it what you want. On another thread there is talk in America of setting up courses with varied tee markers, so the course would change daily. This won't work in America because most golfers want a score at the end of the round they can compare to previous scores. They can not have fun at golf without a number at the end of their round.

I suggested Tim play at TOC with only five or six clubs. I fail to see why that suggestion is not an appropriate answer to his problem of insufficient challenge at a course like TOC.

Cheers,
Dan King

I think I see a free and independent kingdom delivering up that, which all the world has been fighting for since the days of Nimrod; yes, that for which most of all the empires, kingdoms, states, principalities, and dukedoms of Europe are at this time engaged in the most bloody and cruel wars that ever were, to wit,  to wit, a power to manage their own affairs by themselves, without the assistance and councel of any other.
 --Lord Belhaven, Debate on the Act of Union, Scottish Parliament 1707

Dan:

Perhaps you're too enamored with the "ideal" or "what might be" in the small quaint towns of Scotland to see the big(ger) picture.

I play with many scotsman who are competitive golfers who play for score, or a win, or whatever, not for some idyllic, mythical approach to the game that only shivas irons holds.  

Just a thought.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Reading back over this thread, I have been hyper-critical of young Tim Gavrich. Tim, I am sorry.

Dan please never apologise to anyone on GCA ever again.  I'm shocked by something entirely new on here.  I'm off to lie down, I may be gone some time.

[Dan King]

Jed Peters writes:
Perhaps you're too enamored with the "ideal" or "what might be" in the small quaint towns of Scotland to see the big(ger) picture.

Obviously there are going to be exceptions on both sides of the pond.

I personally think the USGA deserves much of the blame for the sorry state of golf in the U.S. of A. Their handicap system has a lot to answer for in making most Americans so enamored with score.

Cheers,
Dan King

I have an insane desire to shave a stroke or two off my handicap.
 --Alister Cooke (on why he was retiring from Masterpiece Theater)

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