[Sean_A]

Sean,

First of all I am going to go back and make the putt so all this is moot.  So you are saying that if one of your opponents says a putt is good you no longer have the right to question if they knew you were getting a stroke.  Sounds to me that according to the rules that once a putt is given it is given and there is no remedy as soon as the words leave his mouth.  I can just see a guy saying "Thanks, hope you knew I was getting a stroke cause that's one more point for the home team." 

John

If it eases your conscience to knock it in, fair enough, but it has no bearing on the match.  Thats why they call putting after the hole is decided PRACTICE. 

If it was a friend I was playing against (in a friendly not in a real comp) I would certainly remind him that I get a stroke if I didn't consider the putt a gimme.  In fact, many of the folks I play with insist that a given stroke be announced on the tee or it is forfeited.  Against someone I don't know, no, I wouldn't say a word.  I don't know what his motivation is for the gimme - it may not be a mistake.  In either case, once the ball is picked up the fat lady has sung no matter who or what is going on.  It just ain't kosher to go back and guess where the ball was and act as though nothing happened.  And yes, I do consider that technically in a proper match (where a field is deserving of protection), once a putt is given there is no going back. 

Easily the most troubling aspect of this deal is that the chap in error didn't live up to his mistake and carry on.  He sure wouldn't last long at a poker table!

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Easily the most troubling aspect of this deal is that the chap in error didn't live up to his mistake and carry on.  He sure wouldn't last long at a poker table!

I was playing in a casino where this happened.  A guy said to another player.."If you raise I'm going all in."  Well, the guy raised and the other guy decided he wanted to fold instead.  The floor was called and the gentleman was told that he must honor his statement and go all in.  He refused.  The pit boss informed him that the casino can not physically push a players chips into the pot so the player had the option of either going all in or being escorted out by security and banned for life.  The gentleman was sobbing out loud as security lifted him from his chair.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I know that I have been a DB on several occassions in the heat of battle whilst competeing, more recently than in the past...of which I am not at all proud...stresses of home, divorce, work,self worth can all rear their ugly heads on the golf course, especially as the intensity of the tournament increases...
I have always tried to apologise after the fact when I know I have messed up, continued to work at it off the course..so does that really make me a DB?
Self confession time here......part of the therapy!

[Peter Pallotta]

Michael -

thanks for noticing the 800 lb gorilla in the room. In my books, that makes you that anti-DB...

Peter

[Sean_A]

Then it is an innocent mistake.  If I was the guest I would have gone back to putt just to protect the integrity and reputation of the member.  If you want to be a respected member who always gets a game it is best to never win a member guest.

JakaB

What a load of cobblers.  You really do have some bug up yer ass when it comes to private clubs.  A given putt is a given putt - no matter the circumstances.  I can't imagine any fool who gives a putt not fully knowing the situation trying to take back his word - that is about as low class as it gets and certainly wins thew DB award.  Its especially amazing in this case as the ball was already picked up.  Of course you can't go back and putt - the ball is in the pocket - I have never heard of anything so dopey.  I don't have a clue about the USGA rule book so I will point you to the R&A rule book. 

Rule 2-4 (last line): A concession may not be declined or withdrawn. 

This has to be about the most straight forward rule in the entire crappy book.  Which leads me to my pet peeve - though to call the folks DBs is a bit harsh.  Folks who putt given putts.  These types must not realize that there may be a reason the putt was given.  If you want to have a go at the putt, wait until the hole is finished - otherwise its cheating and it slows the game down.   

Ciao

The ONLY circumstance where I can see a reasonable deviation from the rule that a given putt cannot be withdrawn is in pairs, where one dimwitted partner says "that's good" to the opponent, but the dimwit's partner IMMEDIATELY blurts out "hey, wait a second, what are you doing?  They're getting a stroke...".

In that case, only a colossal douchebag opponent says "no, he gave it...therefore, it's good".

I think we've all lived through this scenario thousands of times, and I've never seen anybody insist that once the putt is given, it can't be withdrawn.

In singles, once given, even if the giver immediately blurts out "oops, I forgot you get a stroke", that's bullshit.  I've seen that happen, too.  Most of the time, the opponent allows the giver to take it back if it's innocent and FAST.

Shivas

Does anything change if other folks are in earshot and know what happened?  I will let you slide if you say you are willing to break the rules with others aware of the situation - assuming we are talking about a real comp with a field.  If you wouldn't break the rules in that situation (presumably because you know others might call you on it - essentially agreeing to wave rules), then it shouldn't be done when nobody else is about. 

Ciao

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

Once you start giving strokes it is not a real comp.  There are three types of guys who play in member guests, those who cheat on their handicaps to win, those who accuse whoever wins of cheating on their handicaps and those who drink so much they don't care.

[Jed Peters]

Sean,

Once you start giving strokes it is not a real comp.  There are three types of guys who play in member guests, those who cheat on their handicaps to win, those who accuse whoever wins of cheating on their handicaps and those who drink so much they don't care.

Speaking of d-bag behavior.

You do a pretty good job of it here with your commentary.

I know you're really not this big an ass in person. Why are you such a Keyboard Cowboy? Do you have such an inner insecurity and low self-vision that you have to come  on here and consistently be a dickhead?

I know others are sick of it too--but you're really just an asshole....or that's how it has appeared to me over the last few years of (having to) read your posts.

And no, I haven't won a member-guest.

Hugs and kisses,

Jed

[John_Cullum]

Sean,

Once you start giving strokes it is not a real comp.  There are three types of guys who play in member guests, those who cheat on their handicaps to win, those who accuse whoever wins of cheating on their handicaps and those who drink so much they don't care.

Exactly

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

Once you start giving strokes it is not a real comp.  There are three types of guys who play in member guests, those who cheat on their handicaps to win, those who accuse whoever wins of cheating on their handicaps and those who drink so much they don't care.

Speaking of d-bag behavior.

You do a pretty good job of it here with your commentary.

I know you're really not this big an ass in person. Why are you such a Keyboard Cowboy? Do you have such an inner insecurity and low self-vision that you have to come  on here and consistently be a dickhead?

I know others are sick of it too--but you're really just an asshole....or that's how it has appeared to me over the last few years of (having to) read your posts.

And no, I haven't won a member-guest.

Hugs and kisses,

Jed

I have already admitted being a douche bag on several occasions.  What exactly did I say wrong above?  Have you ever been a member of a club where the same guy wins handicap tournaments year after year?  There is good reason he is not liked or asked to play in reindeer games.

[Sean_A]

Sean, it's match play. There's no field to protect.

Shiv

It makes no difference if you are playing Match or Medal.  If there are more than two initially playing there is a field to protect and hence the reason all play by the same rules and the reason why rules can't be waived by competitors. 

John

Ok smart guy.  Lets assume there are no strokes given and a guy just adds the other chap's score incorrectly and gives a putt.  Can the man later say I changed my mind?  If so, what is the time limit?  Does it matter if others are watching?  I think we know the answer and its obviously best to stick to the rule.  However, if you say you are willing to waive a rule in front of a crowd and risk being penalized for doing so - then good on ya.

I think you lot are making this way more complicated then it needs to be.  The rule is very simple and straight forward.  If there was a time to praise the rules for simplicity - this is it!

Ciao

[Jed Peters]

I have already admitted being a douche bag on several occasions.  What exactly did I say wrong above?  Have you ever been a member of a club where the same guy wins handicap tournaments year after year?  There is good reason he is not liked or asked to play in reindeer games.

Yes, and we re-handicapped him and his partner who consistently won. As a matter of fact, I was on the Men's Club Committee  that sent the letter and did the hcp. adjustment. Such was an unenviable position.

John, I'm more referring to your general vitriolic behavior that's expressed on this site. I am far from all "cum-ba-ya" and what not, but you are just caustic....and I like that; your reasoning behind it is just poor or misguided on the whole.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean,

I'm saying in the real world that when you look back and see other people in the tournament approaching the green your opponent will withdraw his request that you go back and putt.  It is a win/win solution that follows the spirit of the rules and allows both parties to save face.  

[Bill_McBride]

When a putt is conceded it's conceded.  Anything else is just BS.  I don't know anybody who would take back a concession.  It would just never come up.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I'm saying in the real world that when you look back and see other people in the tournament approaching the green your opponent will withdraw his request that you go back and putt.  It is a win/win solution that follows the spirit of the rules and allows both parties to save face. 

John

If what you mean by "real world" is that there is nothing at stake, then fine.  I have no problem if a guy wants to go back and putt to his heart's content.  If there is no money on the game I don't care what anybody does so long as it doesn't slow me down.  If there is something at stake and the guy wants to blatantly break rules AND ask my permission to do so, then I am not ok with that.  I guess I am a unreal world golfer.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

John, I'm more referring to your general vitriolic behavior that's expressed on this site. I am far from all "cum-ba-ya" and what not, but you are just caustic....and I like that; your reasoning behind it is just poor or misguided on the whole.

I have to leave now to for a 1:00 shot gun member/guest.  Please, if I ever say anything that is not based in either truth or honesty let me know and I will self-inflict proper punnishment.  I am not going to sit here on OT threads people start and allow posters on this board to disrespect society or the game.  I can't wait until the long drive hole today so I can use the Shivas standard and win me a whole box of some Titleist DT's.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean, it's match play. There's no field to protect.

Shiv

It makes no difference if you are playing Match or Medal.  If there are more than two initially playing there is a field to protect and hence the reason all play by the same rules and the reason why rules can't be waived by competitors. 



Ciao

Sean, I know the rules.  I also know that people are people and when one partner says "that's good" and the his partner immediately says "wait, he's getting a stroke", nobody that I would ever want to play golf with would ever insist that the stroke was given and that's that.  Not when it's immediate like that.  And there is nothing to protect in match play.  There is a rule that says you can't waive rules, no doubt.  But the connection between that rule and and protecting the field is dubious at best.  I'd love to hear an example of any interest the field has in this situation that needs protection. 

Devil's Advocate Here:

Member-guest consisting of a series of match play matches, with winners based on won-lost records in such matches.  Such occur all the time in my experience in case you doubt it; I have played in three.

In that case it is match play but you also have a field to protect.  Particularly toward the end, the winners and losers of matches effect the standings mightily meaning money or no money for other interested partnerships.

TH

ps - I am with Shivas on this in that no way does one ever insist the putt is given in this situation; I am also just loving nailing him at his own game at least a tiny bit here.  Shivas, I just gave you an example of a field needing protection in exactly the scenario you chaps are battling over.

[Adam Clayman]

With all the DB's (as you've defined them) out there, who can respect society or a game that allows for such behavior, all for the bottomline?

[Matthew Rose]

Iron covers, tour bag, the whole nine yards of stupidity.

Iron covers are the calling card of the douche bag.

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, it's match play. There's no field to protect.

Shiv

It makes no difference if you are playing Match or Medal.  If there are more than two initially playing there is a field to protect and hence the reason all play by the same rules and the reason why rules can't be waived by competitors. 



Ciao

Sean, I know the rules.  I also know that people are people and when one partner says "that's good" and the his partner immediately says "wait, he's getting a stroke", nobody that I would ever want to play golf with would ever insist that the stroke was given and that's that.  Not when it's immediate like that.  And there is nothing to protect in match play.  There is a rule that says you can't waive rules, no doubt.  But the connection between that rule and and protecting the field is dubious at best.  I'd love to hear an example of any interest the field has in this situation that needs protection. 

Devil's Advocate Here:

Member-guest consisting of a series of match play matches, with winners based on won-lost records in such matches.  Such occur all the time in my experience in case you doubt it; I have played in three.

In that case it is match play but you also have a field to protect.  Particularly toward the end, the winners and losers of matches effect the standings mightily meaning money or no money for other interested partnerships.

TH

ps - I am with Shivas on this in that no way does one ever insist the putt is given in this situation; I am also just loving nailing him at his own game at least a tiny bit here.  Shivas, I just gave you an example of a field needing protection in exactly the scenario you chaps are battling over.

Let me get this straight.  You are saying that a putt is conceded and shortly after an opponent says, wait a minute, there was a stroke given there, you've got to make that putt.  And they go back on the green, replace the ball and the player then is asked to make the putt?

Hooey I say, hooey.   

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Real petty thread..but once a putt is conceded it is in the hole...now what you mat choose to do beyond that..up to you...no rule breaking..if it makes you fell better goody for you...but really who friggin' cares  it is a bloody member guest....
Bloody hell this is  a game we are talking about ...at just about the lowest level of significant competition there is....
lets talk about those trying to make a living playing the game who are fighting inner demons everyday, with the mortgage on the line...you guys get a friggin' life!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Rules are Rules - like them or not.

To cheat or ignore them makes me wonder why these people play golf.
I sometimes wonder if these cheats also have to rely on the date rape
drug.

Cheating in golf is first and foremost about deceiving yourself, then, there is the little matter of annoying those who had the misfortune to play with you and finally being ostracized in the 19th (and/or being called a Douche Bag).

Is it really worth it?

[Tom Huckaby]

No comment on me nailing you to the rules cross with iron protection of the field example?  Not even throwing me a bone?

And here I gave you the bone of all bones the other day about my ACE.

I am disappointed in you, shivas.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

A gentleman golfer would not openly contradict his fourball partner who had just conceded a putt. He would take the next opportunity to correct his partner's mistake sotto voce but allow the conceded putt to stand.

Conversely, a gentleman golfer who overheard a disagreement between his opponents concerning a putt that he had not yet reached down and picked up would insist on putting out as a courtesy.

Conceding putts is a bit of sportsmanship to keep the game moving along. Neither team should treat it as meaningful beyond that and any misunderstanding should be immediately remedied and just as quickly forgotten. Life's too short to fret over whether someone coulda, woulda, shoulda putted out one particular three-footer in a friendly game, don't you think?

[rjsimper]

What is the best piece of legal gamesmanship one could use in a match that would not relegate you to DB status, or is all gamesmanship the work of DBs?

[Steve Wilson]

I'm probably going to regret this, but concerning the drive in the fairway controversy.  If the prize goes to the ball closest to the green, doesn't that mean it should be called a closest to the pin contest?

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