[TEPaul]

.....as unique, unusual and architecturally groundbreaking as NGLA? And, of course, why and how? It seems we can say and can document, that even before it was completed, Pine Valley got the attention of the world of golf and architecture like no other golf course that had come before it.

(Jay Flemma's thread on comparing and contrasting GCGC and Myopia inspired this one).

[Sean Leary]

TE,

Was PV the first course specifically built to challenge the better player?

[James Boon]

TE, not played either (or GCGC or Myopia for that matter  ), and am no expert on the history of PV, but was the attention perhaps due to all the other golf course architects who had been consulted or got involved?

From Ran's write up "Starting in 1912 when George Crump acquired the property, a who’s-who of architects came, saw, and in some cases contributed to its design: Harry Colt, Hugh Wilson, George Thomas, William Flynn, Charles Blair Macdonald, Walter Travis, Robert Hunter, A.W. Tillinghast, Alister MacKenzie, Donald Ross, William Fownes, Charles Alison and Perry Maxwell."

That level of top name involvement would surely attract a lot of attention?

Cheers

James

[Mike Sweeney]

I think for Pine Valley, you have to look at the club first. It had a completely unique model as it is my understanding that it was really established as a "winter club" mainly for Philadelphia golfers who did not have the sand base on the Main Line that Pine Valley in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey had. It may be near the Mason Dixon line, but if you are thinking of playing golf locally in Philly during January, you are a hard core golfer.

National, Shinnecock, Fishers, Misquamicut and Atlantic City were all seasonal clubs where people vacationed. Maybe Atlantic City was year roundish, but it was a club for family trips to The Shore. I am guessing that Myopia and Essex County were similar "country/seasonal" courses but I don't know the North Shore of Boston that well and I have not been to either.

Augusta, Seminole, Pinehurst, Mountain Lake and others in the Florida were all winter clubs that you traveled to.

I would argue that Pine Valley was the first "destination" club now made popular by Sand Hills, with cabins and rooms for the hard core golfer who wanted to play year round without going South. No planes involved, but Clementon, NJ is no vacation spot and in the 1920's it was probably not that easy to get to from Main Line Philly. I would imagine that everyone at Pine Valley was a hard core golfer.

Tom, I would be interested to hear more about the early membership. It is my guess that the entire place was and still is driven by golfers, who goodness forbid in the 1920's, actually had to work for a living and did not "winter" down South.

From my limited experience at PV, it is my impression that the place is all about golf. The staff, caddies, members and guest all seem to keep the focus on the golf. I have heard that Augusta has a similar atmosphere but I have not seen it first hand.

This all sets up for the Muccish Benevolent Dictator to run the place and prior to that a Benevolent Developer in George Crump who can set up an All Star collaborative architectural team that then produces the great Pine Valley on a sand based and rolling playing field.

Will Old MacDonald with its collaborative team be the modern Pine Valley? When choosing schools and golf courses, I always prefer not-for-profit over profit, but that is not to say that Old MacDonald will not have a unique atmosphere.

[Thomas MacWood]

There were a few club's that aspired to be the best / most challenging course in America - Mayfield and Old Elm come to mind - but none of them had that aspiration in combination with a site like PV. In the UK Walton Heath and Sunningdale come to mind.

Has there been a better inland site before or since? 

[Peter Pallotta]

TE -

This might be simplistic or just plain wrong, but given the topography of PV compared to the topography of NGLA, it strikes me that at Pine Valley the principles of good golf architecture were being made manifest in 3 dimensions instead of 2 dimensions -- maybe for the first time, not only in America but anywhere.

You know how, later on, Mackenzie and Jones might've been trying to re-create the, let's call it, "playing experience" of TOC at Augusta by using the rolling land as a subsititute for wind? PV seems to have been an earlier (but much different) attempt at the same thing, i.e. bringing the strategic elements of sea-side links to an inland setting, and figuring out how to do that when the soil and the land forms were so different.

Peter 

[TEPaul]

Sean, James et al:

Personally, I don't really think Pine Valley got that extraordinary attention because Crump seemed to want to foster a spirit of collaboration more than anyone had before him.

I think it got that attention, first for it's remarkable natural ruggedness and rugged beauty. I just don't think anyone before him even thought to create a golf course in a setting like that one was naturally. That's probably why the place was initially called "Crump's Folly". 

But I think the real reason it got such remarkable attention even before it was completed is it was just considered to be the hardest course on the planet and probably by a country mile.

That's what Crump wanted and that's what he created on purpose. It started out as an idea for winter golf and very quickly transitioned into what Crump and others called a "training ground for champions".

Crump didn't really even want golfers there who weren't good, and he said so.

So, I think those three things are why it got so much attention, probably more than any golf course ever when it was still coming out of the box, so to speak, but most of that I think was because it was harder and more dangerous than anyone had ever seen or even imagined.

This so-called "ideal" that some talked about back then that the best type of golf course and golf architecture was something that somehow accommodated all levels of golfer was a concept that was most definitely not something George Crump was into and he did not hesitate to say so! 

It is also interesting to note, and certainly in a historical/architectural context that both Leeds and Fownse basically felt pretty much the same way Crump did about their special projects---Myopia and Oakmont.

[Sean Leary]

Where was Oakmont on  the difficulty meter at that point?  I am guessing that due to the equipment at the time, the penal nature of PV in the rugged areas would have caused it to be considered to be the most difficult, at least to the average player at the time..

[TEPaul]

Sean:

I do not think there was a single person in the entire world of golf architecture in the teens who really knew something about it who denied that Pine Valley was the most difficult course in the world and probably by a lot. Macdonald said as much. Interestingly, W.C. Fownse had quite a lot to do with PV in the very early 20s and he said as much too.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Will Old MacDonald with its collaborative team be the modern Pine Valley? ...

I suspect it will be thought of as the modern NGLA as it is intended to be. Perhaps Wicked Pony will be the modern Pine Valley.

[George Pazin]

nterestingly, W.C. Fownse had quite a lot to do with PV in the very early 20s and he said as much too.

Perhaps Tom P will be the one to tackle the Fownes/Crump connection...

How much of PV's early difficulty was due to the increased difficulty of forced carries with hickories? The brilliance of the course with respect to second shots is confirmed today, but I wonder how much of its early difficulty was due to equipment.

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