[RJ_Daley]

Tim Cronin stated on an earlier thread that he hoped to spend some time watching the Women's Pub Links tourney at ERin Hills.  If he or anyone who may have attended would make some report as to how it played for the ladies, I'd be interested. 

I looked at the USGA web page, but unfortunately they only report on the matches as holes won, not what score won a hole. 

A very interesting piece of writing is found on the USGA page about ERin Hills.  I think there might be some room for wide interpretation of what was said in the article.  Here it is on link, and you can see if you can read between the lines:

http://www.uswapl.org/news/ErinHillsFeature.html

most notably:

The design isn’t without flaws. Prior to the 2011 U.S. Amateur, several renovations are going to take place, mainly at the par-4 second hole, which has a green the size of a penny. Improvements also will be made at the third, 10th and 17th greens. There is also discussion about shaving down the hill that separates the lower and upper fairway on the first hole. All of these recommendations come from USGA officials and Lang, along with the architects, has agreed to make these improvements.

The way I read that, 5 holes are going to be blown up.     As far as I'm concerned, 2 green needs it, and 10 green needs it...    But, I also think it is perfectly salvageable, and has every potential to still be the great course it was built up to be.  Just not in its innaugral form...on a few holes.  And, the site is unparalleled in rustic country charm, as advertised.

[Brent Carlson]

RJ,

Haven't heard what is happening with the women.

Like you mentioned.  The course is very good.

I would enlarge the second green and reduce the severity of the hump on 15 green.  The "natural" layout is  a joy to play and a tad overpriced at this time.  It will also take some time to fill in.

Should be very good by the US Am in '11.

[RJ_Daley]

Brent, what is your take on the 10th as a par 5, the overall hole design, and then specifically the green design?

[Brent Carlson]

RJ,

From what I can remember, the 10th is a solid and fair hole.  The landing area is generous and the second shot requires some strategy.  Laying up left on the second shot gives you the option of a manageable approach.  Going for it in two is a risk / reward as the green area slopes hard to the right.

I found the green very enjoyable providing for many options.  I heard that the green may go under construction to allow a manageable rear pin. 

Overall a good hole.  My favorite 5 par on EH is the 18th.  Can't beat the view with the clubhouse and Holy Hill.

[RJ_Daley]

I agree that 18 is very good.  I can't agree much on 10.  I didn't like the way the FW on the right off the second shot drops blindly into dead oblivion.  If you hit it wide right, over the blind hillcrest, you have no idea until you get there that you have no recovery an no chance to ever find a ball that went there blind.  This is my general complaint on many of the several blind shots that are on the course.  You have no idea until you arrive that where the shot is blind, it is also dead, unfindable.  Without a forecaddie, you could have a very long and frustrating day.  As for the green on 10, I just think that the entire 1/3 is wasted, and also drops off abruptly into OB or native, again blind and unfindable in many cases.

I really can't figure how they fix that steep ravine, blind native off the second shot on 10.  But, I agree there is ample room up the left.  And, as they say, it is only blind surprise once. 

[Phil McDade]

RJ:

Try as I might, I simply couldn't make it over there this past week.

I'm interested to hear how it played in terms of conditioning. Southern Wisconsin was hit with torrential rains in the 2-3 weeks leading up the Publinx, but the week in which it was played was nearly ideal for fast & firm conditions -- temps in the mid-70s, low humidity during nearly the entire week, and a good but not over-the-top breeze about for much of the week. I'd be interested in learning how it drained, how it firmed up after the rains, and how it played. Reports from the field in local papers suggest the players thought the set-up was tough but fair, with solid conditioning.

[Jim Colton]

I find it interesting that two courses that have taken the minimalist movement to a no dirt moving extreme - Dismal River and Erin Hills - have or will have to rework many holes to make them more playable.  I don't think the average golfer cares if nothing was moved.  As Tom Doak's recent quiz proved, even the most astute golfer doesn't know half the stuff that goes on, which I guess is the point.  If you do a good job, you can move around some dirt, make the course more fun and playable at the same time, and make it look like it's been there forever.

I agree with Dick that EH seems a bit overpriced, which is probably why I haven't played it yet.  Unfortunately, I expect that the prices will continue to escalate, especially if they get that US Open, to near-Kohler levels.

[Brad Swanson]

RJ:

Try as I might, I simply couldn't make it over there this past week.

I'm interested to hear how it played in terms of conditioning. Southern Wisconsin was hit with torrential rains in the 2-3 weeks leading up the Publinx, but the week in which it was played was nearly ideal for fast & firm conditions -- temps in the mid-70s, low humidity during nearly the entire week, and a good but not over-the-top breeze about for much of the week. I'd be interested in learning how it drained, how it firmed up after the rains, and how it played. Reports from the field in local papers suggest the players thought the set-up was tough but fair, with solid conditioning.

Phil,
   
   Considering the the goings-on of the last few weeks, actually getting there (without detouring through Chicago) would be a decent accomplishment.

Cheers,
Brad

[Mike McGuire]

11 inches of rain in less than seven days made a lot of courses in the area unplayable. Perhaps one of the benefits of an ultra minimalist routing is good natural drainage.

I was at the event the second day. The course was set up around 6,100 yards. The forward tees give you way different looks. The wind was steady 20-25 mph making it a good test.

No they didn't play the dell hole.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's a report from the local paper:

www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=764111

[Phil McDade]

RJ:

Try as I might, I simply couldn't make it over there this past week.

I'm interested to hear how it played in terms of conditioning. Southern Wisconsin was hit with torrential rains in the 2-3 weeks leading up the Publinx, but the week in which it was played was nearly ideal for fast & firm conditions -- temps in the mid-70s, low humidity during nearly the entire week, and a good but not over-the-top breeze about for much of the week. I'd be interested in learning how it drained, how it firmed up after the rains, and how it played. Reports from the field in local papers suggest the players thought the set-up was tough but fair, with solid conditioning.

Phil,
   
   Considering the the goings-on of the last few weeks, actually getting there (without detouring through Chicago) would be a decent accomplishment.

Cheers,
Brad

Brad:

I had actually figured out a way to get there around the detours that was somewhat direct, or at least not a zillion miles on detours, but time constraints kept me away. The Wisconsin Gazetteer is my friend!

[RJ_Daley]

I can see where a set up of 6100 yards would be much more 'fair' than tees at ~6800, even if proportionate to the ladies strength level.  Isn't 6100 a wee short even for ladies of that calibre?  And, I assume the rough was graduated with a very wide intermediate cut.  I think Mike Hendren and I played in the 67-6800 range.  The carries, and course management issues are vastly different.  I can't even imagine what the course would be at the full 77-7800 for the big boys, particularly if the rough was about 1/3rd as wide as it was generously cut when we were there. (I'd estimate intermediate 3 inch cut at about 12ft+ each side when we saw it)   Again, I can't see how they could play any serious tournament without forecaddies out on every hole spotting where the many blind ball shots land, particularly if they play FWs at 30wide or less.

Have they had any college matches there?  And, we still haven't gotten a sense of what scores were winning holes in this Women's PL routinely, pars, birdies or bogeys.

I must get down there again yet this year to be fair minded.  Maybe even multiple times.  The fact that she drained after that rain, and maybe even firmed up is impressive.  I must say that Mike and I played it after heavy rains the previous day late last summer and it was quite soft.

[Jim Nugent]

Some scoring info from the WAPL:  co-medalists tied at 144, 2 under.  (Par is 73.)  The cutline to make match play was 160.  Eventual winner Tiffany Joh, who also won in 2006, shot 153.  So did Song, her opponent in the final. 

In the finals, Joh was 4 over after 18; that left her 2 down to Song, who was 1 over.  In the afternoon round Joh went 4 under through 17.  She won 2 and 1 on the 35th hole.  Song was 1 over in the afternoon round.

I eyeballed those numbers from the scorecards, so there may be some slight errors, but at worst they are very close. 

[RJ_Daley]

Thank you Jim.  I'd say that scoring was not as high as I would have guessed, even at 6100 yards.

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  It's not because of the course, it's because those girls are better than you imagine they are.  They really put most of us to shame.

[Jim Nugent]

When Joh won in 2006, she went something like 11 under in around 30 holes in the final. 

Erin Hills got rave reviews, according to the articles I read.  Everyone from players to USGA officials thought it was real hard, not unfair, and a great course for future USGA events.  Like maybe the 2017 U.S. Open. 

[Garland Bayley]

I find it interesting that two courses that have taken the minimalist movement to a no dirt moving extreme - Dismal River and Erin Hills - have or will have to rework many holes to make them more playable. ...

Are you saying there are competent minimalists, and incompetent ones?
Guess we know who you think the incompetent ones are, who are the competent ones?

[Mark Smolens]

For those interested in going to EH, there is a Shivas Irons Society outing there on the 19th of July.  Meet with Mr. Lang to discuss history of course, box lunch, and barbecue afterwards for $279.  Better ball event with randomly selected participant in the Open Championship.

When I was there for the 1st time over Memorial Day, I thought the 7200 yard tees would be too much for me -- and they were.  My buddy who can play shot 72 (his second time seeing the course), but some of the long holes can make a bunter try to swing too hard. . . and if you don't hit it straight there, it can be a very, very long day!

[Dan Moore]

Here is a straight on shot of the offending 2nd green.  To get this angle into this tiny green you have a blind drive directly over a glacial mound otherwise you have a angled blind shot from the far right of the green.  Both photos are from early May before the trees filled in and show evidence of last year's hard Wisconsin winter. 



Here is the 3rd green.  I'm surprised they feel a need to change this one.  The far left side has some really good pin positions and subtle breaks. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Here is a straight on shot of the offending 2nd green.  To get this angle into this tiny green you have a blind drive directly over a glacial mound otherwise you have a angled blind shot from the far right of the green.  Both photos are from early May before the trees filled in and show evidence of last year's hard Wisconsin winter. 

First of all, omg. That is really small. Second, how "natural" is that green site? Or is it a man-made little mound?

[Glenn Spencer]

Here is a straight on shot of the offending 2nd green.  To get this angle into this tiny green you have a blind drive directly over a glacial mound otherwise you have a angled blind shot from the far right of the green.  Both photos are from early May before the trees filled in and show evidence of last year's hard Wisconsin winter. 

First of all, omg. That is really small. Second, how "natural" is that green site? Or is it a man-made little mound?

Haven't played it, don't know the yardage, don't know the par.  I can't imagine enjoying this hole.

[John Kavanaugh]

Glenn,

From what I know about your game I believe you would enjoy the blind drive over a mound that requires a reasonable height of shot.  This is going to leave you around 80 yds or so to a small green.  How could a guy who hates Longaburger not love this hole?

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,

From what I know about your game I believe you would enjoy the blind drive over a mound that requires a reasonable height of shot.  This is going to leave you around 80 yds or so to a small green.  How could a guy who hates Longaburger not love this hole?

80-yard shot to that green? I could be out there all day!! I would be terrified of that shot!! The hole is too hard for me, that is for sure. At the same time, it just looks weird, so small and sitting in the open like that.

[John Kavanaugh]

The green is much bigger in person.  As I near 50 nothing makes me happier than a short par 4 that terrifies a young bomber with a difficult approach.  Don't worry about it, the golf writers have influenced its destruction much as they did to the 14th at Bandon Trails.

[Phil McDade]

Where's Shivas?

 Re:Erin Hills - 'An Infant Classic'
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2007, 10:05:48 am »   

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Well, I loved the Mae West second hole.  Loved it.  I loved it's positioning in the round as a shocker that says "be prepared for anything on this golf course.  I have not felt that level of sheer terror over a half-lob wedge shot ever in my life in a non-tournament round, nor have I felt the level of jubilation I felt after actually succeeding in getting the shot to hold and stay on that postage stamp of a postage stamp green...

...to me, that's a great, great hole in that it draws levels of emotion out of the player than no hole other than perhaps 17 at TPC does in connection with an otherwise fairly simple golf shot.

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