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AndrewB

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I had the good fortune to be able to play in the California Amateur earlier this week (it's still going on, for those of you who want to get out and watch).  We were treated to playing Lakeside Golf Club in Burbank and Oakmont Country Club in Glendale, both designed by Max Behr (http://www.scga.org/08CGA/courses.html).  I had not played a Max Behr course before and actually know very little about him aside from what I've read in Geoff Shackelford's Golden Age of Golf Design.  I have noticed that he's often quoted on this site and he seems to be an exceptional writer.

I did just notice the picture in Geoff's book of the thirteenth green at Lakeside adjacent to a stream that was washed away.  If anyone knows the history behind this green and any routing changes, please speak up.

Everyone told me that the greens at Lakeside would be small, but even with that I wasn't ready for the greens to be that small.  It certainly is a test of precise ball-striking, but not in a way that dictates how one plays the course.  There are subtle options off the tee on many holes and they felt like the kind of options where one never settles on a decision forever.  The kind where if you're swinging particularly well or poorly one day you'll alter your plan to give it a go or play more conservatively, respectively.  For example, if I wasn't hitting my driver well I'd lay back a bit on 10 to stay in the widest part of the fairway since it narrows up on the right, and if I was hitting it great I might hit driver on 11 to try to get myself up even with the trees on the left to have a shorter approach shot or hit a low draw and run it down the hill on 12 to get within half-wedge distance.

There are several places where the target you're hitting to is so small that you are tasked with hitting a very good shot or having a very difficult recovery.  Most courses have bail-out areas that are easy to recover from, but I struggled to find very many of these at Lakeside.  Perhaps right of two green if the hole is cut left or short left of the ninth green would be examples.  Most courses also have targets large enough that even if you hit a slight miss you'll still be on the green with a slightly more difficult putt, but on Lakeside only a few greens are large enough to provide that sort of comfort.  It takes a strong (or perhaps quiet) mind to make a free swing when you know that it's either a good swing or an all-world up and down to make a par or better.

The other thing I heard about Lakeside before going down there was how it was a short course.  Well, like many so-called short courses, Lakeside finds a way to play longer than the card's total yardage by including several very short (but very tricky) holes.  Both seven and eight played into the wind every time I played them and left long irons into the greens.  Nine is a 240 yard par three with a very small green.  The conservative play off the tee on 11 leads to a mid-iron in, and I found 14, 17, and 18 all played into the wind that pushed them from short par fours to medium length.  Additionally, the small greens make these shots feel longer, or, said differently, make a shot with a six iron feel as difficult to pull off as a typical shot with a three iron.

I really enjoyed the course.  I thought the routing flowed exceptionally well throughout the round and every hole seems to keep you on your toes.

I posted this of course to hear the thoughts of others who have played the course and/or know about Max Behr's style.  Hopefully later I'll get a chance to write up some thoughts on Oakmont and compare and contrast these two Behr courses.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Andrew, first congrats on making it to match play. Well done.


The intersting thing about trying to figure out Behr's tendencies is, well, he doesn't seem to show any that show themsleves throughout his courses. Now, there are 2 theories on this. #1, so much of his work has been lost and therefore makes it very difficult to see his tendencies, or #2, he was the ultimate in naturalism and therefore went out of his way to make sure there weren't any perceived tendencies. Lakeside at one time had faux sand dunes, for example, that Behr went to great lengths to create and make it look like it was part of the landscape. This would seem to contradict to some degree the first part of theory number 2, but it doesn't mean it disspells it either. Lakeside has been changed a great deal (through the floods and artificial alterations) and it makes it difficult to look at the course today and discern what's Behr's and what's not, although I've seen quite a few photo's that Tommy N has. I wish he were still here because he knows quite a bit about Lakeside and Max Behr. I know even less about Oakmont (although I'll hopefully be playing it later this summer), so I can't offer much there.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 12:51:12 PM by David Stamm »
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tom Huckaby

Great write up, Andrew.  It's been a long time since I've played Lakeside, but you are making some of it come back to me.  Oh it has precise targets for sure....

Can someone clarify thoug:  how much Max Behr is left there? I had thought it was largely changed since his day.

Looking forward to your comments about Oakmont also.

TH

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think they are by far the smallest greens I have played.Did they set it up with some short grass around the greens?Seems like there is usually more long grass around them.Some really tough short shots.That Los Angeles river isn't exactly navigatable(sp?)

Peter Pallotta

Andrew, et al

Thanks very much. Great write up and follow-ups. It's interesting for me, Andrew, to get a perspective on Behr from an tournament-level amateur. Any sense of what your fellow competitors thought about the course?

Thanks again
Peter

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Andrew,I assume you played Lakeside at less than 6600 yards.I can't think of where they can get much more distance.Is that accurate?

AndrewB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

I can't recall any short grass around the greens aside from the front openings.  The rough was rather thick so just missing a lot of greens left tricky shots where you have to swing hard to get the ball out of the lie, but you only want to hit the ball a very short distance.  As you surely know, even when you execute as intended, it's very easy to misread a lie and end up coming up well short or going way long.

Yes, the course played less than 6600 yards (6534 according to the tournament website) and it would be tough to get more yardage.  I suppose there's room on 10, 11, 16, 17, and 18, but I'm not sure how much.

Peter,

The comments I heard most talked about how small the greens were, how tricky it was to score on, and how patience was going to be an important quality to do well.   Patience being important because it's easy to expect to score well on short holes and get frustrated, or to try to do too much to make par and turn a bogey into a double and shoot yourself right out of it. I didn't hear any negative comments about the course.


Regarding the picture of the 13th in Geoff's book, I've been told the nines were switched so that actually is the current fourth (second par five) running along what used to be the LA River.  Apparently 12 green and 13 tee used to also be on the other side of the river.
"I think I have landed on something pretty fine."

Dennis_Harwood


Yes, the course played less than 6600 yards (6534 according to the tournament website) and it would be tough to get more yardage.  I suppose there's room on 10, 11, 16, 17, and 18, but I'm not sure how much.



For the qualifying we used the 6534 shown on the website-- For matchplay we did use for some rounds alternate tees on 9 (extending to 249) and 18 ( to 440), but used shorter tees on 6 and/or 15 so 6500 was a fairly consistent length, (course could be extended to perhaps 6700 if absolute tips used on every hole)

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