TOO firm and fast? Pasatiempo specifically, any course in general...

[Tom Huckaby]

Yesterday I had the great fortune of playing Pasatiempo with two great guys, and with the course playing at it's absolute perfect "maintenance meld" as I see it.  By that I mean, the fairways were very firm allowing for lots of roll; the rough was medium height causing plenty of problems, but not mandating any hackouts; and the greens were very quick, but not so quick as to allow for absurdity/infinite putting.  It was the best I have ever seen the course in terms of condition, and wow did it ratchet up the thinking, and skill, required to achieve decent scores!  After some initial bad play induced-bitching by yours truly, I came to realize that this was what it was all about for this course... it required all that one could muster, but if one did play thoughtfully and execute well, success was there to be had.  Wow was it fun.

But along the way, I was reminded of a thought by huge hitter and all-around great guy Jon Spaulding that when Pasa played this firm, it was TOO MUCH as he saw it.  That is, he got a drive on 10 to 110 in (due to the firmness allowing for huge roll) and that to him made it TOO short... the thought being no one ever should have a wedge into that long, strong par four.

And I think he is correct to some extent - Mackenzie sure didn't mean for anyone to have wedge into 10.  But that being said, I don't think he would have minded that a great drive by a normal human like me allowed for a 7iron approach.  And then I think about all the fun shots that the firmness allows in and around the green... and the enjoyment and ego boost a guy like me gets when drives roll out as far as they did... And I'm thinking that Jon and those like him are just anomalies.  Yes, when it's firm, many holes at Pasa will play too short for Jon.  But they play so darn fun for the rest of us, in the end isn't it better to have it this firm?

I'm interested in any thoughts on this, both about Pasatiempo and any other course. 

TH

[Jed Peters]

When I last played pasa w/ Rob, it was AWESOME with the firm conditions--the place was a blast.

For me, pasa is all about the shots into the green--those greens have me nervous knowing if I don't hit it to the "right spot" I'm 3 jacking for sure.

Our course has finally got on the firm and fast bandwagon--and I'm so much happier for it.

[Jed Peters]

Oh yeah, and to combat the length issue, my home course has just lengthened one hole to 465 from 420, because, even though it was pancake flat, they didn't want people hitting 3 wood, short iron into the green.

So is pasa too short to be firm and fast? Well, I don't think the western intercollegiate scores really showed that. But then again the greens were lightening fast and the course's defense.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed:

Of course Pasatiempo - and any course with contoured greens - can take this too far as well.  Putting it in the wrong spot and having a very difficult two-putt is fine; but the absurdity of putts not staying anywhere near the hole just due to gravity is taking it too far. Yesterday the course was right on the edge, and to me just perfect.

But yes, the shortened length is the issue.  And Pasa also has created longer back tees at 6 and 13 which do help.  But every other hole they seem to be maxed out.

And scoring is not really the issue, I don't think.  Oh sure, Pasa can protect itself just fine, as the scores at the Western show.  It's more the intent of things... should the course not be allowed to get to a state where Jon has a wedge into 10?

I know he would not advocate that and never said so.  He just said it didn't play right for him when it was this firm.  And he is correct, I think.  I do believe also that it's not right that an average-hitter like myself gets it to where I have a 7iron.

BUT... it's so darn fun this way... in the end I still see it as a net positive.

Whaddya think?

TH

[David Stamm]

Great question, Huck. This is what the game has been facing for the last 10-12 years (Tiger era). Would the GA arch's still feel the same way about F&F if they knew about today's equipment? Or is it all relative? Robert Ball and I were talking and we were discussing this very thing a couple of weeks ago. It's a shame that a player like Jon can't interface (Mucci copyright infringement) with some features with a course because he's hitting it over alot of them. At the same time, Jon and players like him are the exception to the rule. I believe most of the great courses still have hazards to contend with that F&F conditions make a player like him still have to be thoughtful about their shots. Remember also, 10 at Pasa is a hole that was shortened from a par 5 to a par 4.

[Jed Peters]

Jed:

Of course Pasatiempo - and any course with contoured greens - can take this too far as well.  Putting it in the wrong spot and having a very difficult two-putt is fine; but the absurdity of putts not staying anywhere near the hole just due to gravity is taking it too far. Yesterday the course was right on the edge, and to me just perfect.

But yes, the shortened length is the issue.  And Pasa also has created longer back tees at 6 and 13 which do help.  But every other hole they seem to be maxed out.

And scoring is not really the issue, I don't think.  Oh sure, Pasa can protect itself just fine, as the scores at the Western show.  It's more the intent of things... should the course not be allowed to get to a state where Jon has a wedge into 10?

I know he would not advocate that and never said so.  He just said it didn't play right for him when it was this firm.  And he is correct, I think.  I do believe also that it's not right that an average-hitter like myself gets it to where I have a 7iron.

BUT... it's so darn fun this way... in the end I still see it as a net positive.

Whaddya think?

TH

Well, what'd Jon Spaulding shoot that day? After all, the game of golf is still about putting the ball in the hole.

As for you hitting 7 iron in, you obviously hit it close to the corner on the left and caught the hillside, giving you optimum roll. Now, I'm willing to bet we hit it pretty close in distance to each other, and if you hit that same drive out to the right or "safe" part of the fairway, you'll have 200ish in.

If you hooked your drive a bit, the OB comes into play.

So I think your drive was the perfect risk reward, and the firm conditions promoted that even more.

Again, if you pushed that drive even more, you'd be under the trees. hit a big hook? OB.

So now, it's perfect as is.

[Tom Huckaby]

David - very well said, great point that although Jon can get it to where he has a wedge, he does have to be thoughtful AND execute well or he too will be in trouble.  In the case of 10 Pasa, he has to guard against too far left, or trees right... if he hits a perfect drive, he is to be rewarded.  I guess in the end the reward may be TOO much, but he still has to make it happen.

And the same goes for weakstick me getting it to 160.  To make that happen I have to hit a damn well perfect shot, and if I do, the reward isn't too great. The risk is large also.

But what about a flatter course with none of the defenses of Pasatiempo?

My beloved home course Santa Teresa is emerald green, and thus pretty soft and slow, even in summer.  Oh the greens get plenty firm and quick... but one can plug a ball in the fairways even in July.  I'd love for it to play like Pasa did yesterday for us.  But I wonder... if that happensm in my own relative world I might have the same issues Jon did.  That is, I know what clubs I am "supposed to" hit into certain holes... getting way closer to that might be too much.  I don't know.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed - good call also, though I dare say you must be longer than I am.  But anyway, oh yes, it was a perfect drive by me, just as you say, and had the risks you list also.  So 10 Pasa works.

I just do get Jon's point also though - perfection for him should not mean wedge - that just somehow seems wrong. 

But in the end, even a wedge is a tough shot into that green, especially to certain pins.  So yes, it does work.

I just wonder about other holes too... and other courses... firm and fast is the way to play, for sure.. but David asks a great question re if the architects intended the results we get today. 

TH

[David Stamm]

Jed and you bring up a great point, Tom. A hole like 10 is not to be triffled with if you take the aggresive, preferred shot (hard draw) and don't pull it off. Hang it out right and you have a much longer shot into a very difficult green. Overcook it and you are dead. So the quesion then becomes, if one decides to hit the shot Jon hit and pulls it off, is the aftermath a just reward or too much of good thing?

[Tom Huckaby]

Jed and you bring up a great point, Tom. A hole like 10 is not to be triffled with if you take the aggresive, preferred shot (hard draw) and don't pull it off. Hang it out right and you have a much longer shot into a very difficult green. Overcook it and you are dead. So the quesion then becomes, if one decides to hit the shot Jon hit and pulls it off, is the aftermath a just reward or too much of good thing?

That is the question.  I think Jon's point is more that he got TOO much of a reward.  I am thinking I did too on my weakstick level.

But if the answer is to make the course softer, than I say Jon and I just accept our relative great fortune!

How does this work at Rustic Canyon (another course that at least when I played it was very firm and fast)?  Are there any holes there where the reward for pulling off a great drive is too great?

TH

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:

A lot of weight has been given to that "ideal maintenance meld" on this site, but there is always the question of "ideal for whom?"  What's best for a Tour pro is certainly not best for you and I, so the IMM is always based on the biases of the observer.

A truly great course works well under any conditions.

[David Stamm]

Jed and you bring up a great point, Tom. A hole like 10 is not to be triffled with if you take the aggresive, preferred shot (hard draw) and don't pull it off. Hang it out right and you have a much longer shot into a very difficult green. Overcook it and you are dead. So the quesion then becomes, if one decides to hit the shot Jon hit and pulls it off, is the aftermath a just reward or too much of good thing?

That is the question.  I think Jon's point is more that he got TOO much of a reward.  I am thinking I did too on my weakstick level.

But if the answer is to make the course softer, than I say Jon and I just accept our relative great fortune!

How does this work at Rustic Canyon (another course that at least when I played it was very firm and fast)?  Are there any holes there where the reward for pulling off a great drive is too great?

TH

I agree, no way would I soften the course and sacrifice the optimum conditions for most everyone else. Plus, there is no gurantee Jon, you or me are guranteed to hit the perfect shot there. There is much trouble to be found at Pasa and other great courses if the aggresive shot is not executed.


As to the Rustic question, I need to think about that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

A lot of weight has been given to that "ideal maintenance meld" on this site, but there is always the question of "ideal for whom?"  What's best for a Tour pro is certainly not best for you and I, so the IMM is always based on the biases of the observer.

A truly great course works well under any conditions.

BINGO!

Great points.  Yes, ideal for whom?  Ideal for me is darn right not ideal for Jon.  And in the end, so true that a great course works well under any conditions.  That's certainly the case at Pasatiempo.  It might not be IDEAL for Jon when it's really firm, but it surely works.  And thinking back to when it was soft... not that long ago, but likely never to be the case again (wow oh wow is drainage improved...) well it still worked pretty damn well that way too.

I certainly do like that many courses do seem to be erring on the side of firm these days, anyway.  Oh there still is work to be done... but firm does seem to be the new ideal.  And that's a great thing.

Guys like Jon are just gonna have to accept more wedges into greens.

 

[David Stamm]

Tom:

A lot of weight has been given to that "ideal maintenance meld" on this site, but there is always the question of "ideal for whom?"  What's best for a Tour pro is certainly not best for you and I, so the IMM is always based on the biases of the observer.

A truly great course works well under any conditions.

 
Guys like Jon are just gonna have to accept more wedges into greens.

 

That's if guys like Jon hit perfect shots all the time. I'm sure you can think of quite few places at Pasa that can get a long player into trouble if he doesn't execute under F&F conditions.

[Tom Huckaby]

David - oh, for sure re Pasatiempo.  Jon will always have to watch himself, and will pay a penalty for poor execution without a doubt.

You know what else is kinda cool about that course?

A few bunkers that for me don't seem to matter much except for decoration/aiming now will give Jon and those like him some pause.

Think of these:

fairway bunkers short right of 2
fairway bunker about 50 yards short of 4, on the left
fairway bunker on 7 - he definitely can reach

That's all I can think of... but those are in play for him... interesting....

TH

[Doug Siebert]

Tom,

If the course was F&F enough to give great roll on the drives, wouldn't it also be F&F enough that even a wedge from 110 isn't exactly going to stop on a dime so it isn't as simple as it might be under less firm conditions?  I don't know Pasa (though I plan to rectify that someday on a future trip to CA) so I don't know the details of that particular hole, but in general having lots of run due to rock hard fairways isn't a problem if it is coupled with rock hard greens that make stopping the ball quite a trick with any club.

When I think of F&F I think of courses like TOC.  I was probably getting 60 yards of roll on my drives last time I was there so I drove four greens and had mid irons to the par 5s.  But even when I had a wedge in my hands on the longer par 4s I had to really think about where I was going to try and land the ball and what it was going to do there, because it would bounce higher than the flagstick upon landing and with a front pin it needed to land short of the green to have a chance of getting close.  Given what I scored despite the 350 yard drives I'm pretty sure I would have been at least a half dozen strokes better off if if it was soft and lush and my ball would have just stuck where it landed.  But then it wouldn't be TOC and I sure as hell wouldn't trade the F&F conditions for a better score!

[JSPayne]

I'll be lucky enough to play Pasa next weekend, and after talking to my buddy Paul, the new super out there, I'm already trembling with anticipation. I last played it mid-restoration and just the pictures of the completed work have me all excited.

But his talk of the conditions, as you all are mentioning, get me excited as well. He's the only super I know that told me he got some complaints from his greens being TOO healthy and growing too much, causing them to run slower than normal, but it sounds like that is under control now.

I look forward to firm and fast conditions out there. I think Jed has it right, that on that particular course at least, firm and fast may make some holes "easier" especially for the longer hitter, but only if you play the risk reward shot and play well, putting it in all the right spots. Wayward tee and approach shots can make for a very challanging round out there.

[Adam Clayman]

Huck, What about the good doctor makes you think he expected anything from anyone? He provided the medium for the sport and I assume he could not have expected the influences that irrigation has had on the golf design world. He did predict the need to build longer and longer courses without I&B regs.

Did Jon make a kick in birdie with his long drive?

[Tom Huckaby]

Gents, great stuff, all of it!

Just understand that as we've contemplated in this thread, #10 at Pasa works.  No I don't think Jon had a kick-in birdie after getting it to wedge distance - it's still a tough shot to that very unique green, which yes also plays pretty darn firm.  The point was more that no one should ever really have a wedge into that... But again, that hole defends itself just fine.  The question was more on the overall can it get too firm such that it plays too short for guys like Jon... or even the rest of us?

And I think it's been proven pretty conclusively that it's not the case at Pasatiempo.  Perhaps Jon will get to places that seem wrong to him, but that is not going to make the course too easy or anything. 

Adam asks great questions and in so doing makes a very good point; as does Doug.

And JS, you ought to enjoy it for sure!  I do believe however that the knife-edge conditions we saw on Wednesday were in preparationf or a major members' tournament this weekend... so it may be ratcheted back to normal (a little slower) when you play.  In the end, I think you may even have MORE fun that we did.  It really was on the edge the other day... given tough pins, well... it required precision that was beyond my abilities, that's for sure.  Oh it was fun, but on some holes frustrating as well.  I think it was perhaps one foot too fast on the greens for optimal fun - one foot slower and even wilder pins could be used, more pitches and chips would have a fighting chance to stop by the hole, etc.  I'll be interested to hear how it is when you play and what you think - please do report.

Now what I'd like to know more is about OTHER courses - not just Pasatiempo.  Are there others that can get too firm and fast?  Play too short or too easy or just plain wrong?  Not every course has the wildly contoured greens and other defenses that Pasa does...

The Old Course never will - deep bunkers, huge greens - those will always keep the player honest.

But are there other courses where it can get to be too much?

TH

[Mike Benham]

... causing them to run slower than normal, but it sounds like that is under control now.

For those crusaders out there, and as noted above, the definition of normal is the key.  It would hard to play Pasatiempo day in and day out at the greens speeds they were the other day.

To me, the most exciting aspect of Pasatiempo's renovation and maintenance philosophy, is the reclaimed putting surfaces and its effect on the golfers approach shots, chips and pitches around the greens.  Many more shoulders and swales that you must consider and hopefully, use to your advantage to get the ball closer to the hole.  #14, an under appreciated par 4, is now fabulous with the reclaimed green surface.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well said, Mike.  What's very cool to this crusader is that the definition of normal is NOT what we saw the other day.  Normal now means 9-10 max on the greens, as Rob has reported before.

Thus I believe I have found my holy grail.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

Now my turn....we played match play for the KP, wherein I barely scraped by an octogenarian . Score would have been about 76 which is highest score I've shot there in a long time. A terrible day driving the ball other than 1, 2, 10, 16. There was no kick-in birdie on 10; not even close....but it was an easy par. The course is still harder than hell due to the green contours, the requirement to be in the fairway/hit precise iron shots to all of the "new" pin positions available. It was already one of my favorite places to play, and has moved up with the recent work by Doak/Urbina.

My comment at the KP was that they "might" have gone a bit far with the firmness of the fairways, which "might" detract from the shot values on the longer par 4's. I've hit the same drive there under the "old" maintenance meld which would leave me 140-170 in depending on the weather. With a sand wedge in hand you take the bunker out of play, as well as the stress of hitting a longer iron to that green and the resultant putt. I'm not sure that's what was intended on what I always felt was one of the tougher holes on the course. Having said that, it was originally a par 5 with a boomerang green.....so we're so far from original intent that the debate becomes futile.

I would rather see them err on the side of too firm, with the slower green speeds....which it appears they are doing.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thank you for the clarification, oh great one.

You make a lot of sense.  I think the ideal maintenace meld for you would have the fairways a little softer.  But for the rest of us, it works better firmer.  But as Doak said, the best courses work under whatever conditions, and I think we can say that about Pasatiempo.

In any case my point here was not to pick on you, but rather just use your example.  You did get my wheels churning.

So re Pasa, for sure, err on the side of firm fairways and reasonable greens... and they are doing that, which is fantastic.

But now what about other courses?  Are there any you play that can get too firm? 


TH

[Mike Benham]

My comment at the KP was that they "might" have gone a bit far with the firmness of the fairways, which "might" detract from the shot values on the longer par 4's.

But let's keep things in perspective, on holes #2 and #10, where drives rolled out, both are downhill and you can take advantage of the fairway bumps to get some extra roll.  By no means were they British Open like with 50 yards of roll uphill ...

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't think a course can be too firm or too fast -- but modern equipment can definitely make a course too short.

When courses began overwatering to stay green, they became soft, changing the nature of the game. Pasatiempo was designed to be played the way it played for Huck and Jon -- and in those conditions, the old equipment would have been perfect. Unfortunately, that horse has left the barn, but I'd still rather see players adjust to firm fairways, rather than see clubs soften and lengthen their courses to adjust to the new equipment.