Doak Confidential Guide

[BVince]

If anybody is looking I have an extra copy or two, for whatever market price is.

That's the problem.

Figuring out the market price. Some people think they are worth at least $1,000-$2,000, but one just sold on eBay for ~$400.

Ken

How could anyone think that a copy of the book is worth over a thousand dollars?  Maybe if it was signed by Tom and came with complimentary rounds at Pacific and Ballyneal.  I have read it and although I appreciate his honesty and point of view, I think it is more fun to form my own opinions.

[Kalen Braley]

Byron,

Market forces at work I suppose, why is anything worth what you can get for it?  However in this case, I can't help but think a big portion of the pricetag is due to lack of supply.  If they did another couple of runs its probably a totally different story.

[Tom_Doak]

The complete history of the book is as follows:

First Edition:  40 copies printed on a dot matrix printer, November 1988.  No pictures.  There are some pirate copies around, but the original 40 were all distributed to good friends, so they are hard to come by.

Second Edition:  20 copies, same format as first, November 1989.  Distributed updates to the 40 owners of the first edition.

Third Edition:  limited edition of 1000 copies, fall 1994.  Gave the first 80 away to players at the Renaissance Cup, sold most of the rest for $100 each.  Hardbound, and edited to exclude comments somebody might have taken as "personal", but still no pictures.  Still have about 50 in my office, but stopped selling them when one was immediately resold for profit; recently sold a couple to raise money for charitable causes.

Fourth Edition:  Sleeping Bear Press, 1996.  Text barely edited from the limited edition above, but with pictures.  I think there were 10,000 of these.

Second Printing:  1997 or 98.  The only change was to put Stonewall instead of High Pointe in the Gourmet's Choice section.  Unfortunately, because those courses were alphabetized, there was a printing error and the text for Garden City Golf Club was printed for Durban CC as well.  This was fixed and anybody who sent their book back got a replacement, but there are still some "error" books out there.  I think this final print run was 2,000 copies.


Bryon:  The real value of the book is to save you from spending $$$ to go see a course which isn't all it's cracked up to be.  That's worth a lot, if you agree with my point of view.

The actual market price is all about supply and demand.  There have been a couple of articles written about the book in recent years (one in The Wall Street Journal) which raised the demand significantly and drove up the price for a while.  With 12,000 copies in print the book shouldn't be worth even $400, but it's got a following, and as Brian Morgan always told me, the real way to make money in the golf business is to do limited-edition works and sell them for $$$$$.  There are plenty of people in golf with too much disposable income.

[Dan Herrmann]

Damn - Dot matrix - now that's cool!

[Rich Goodale]

as Brian Morgan always told me, the real way to make money in the golf business is to do limited-edition works and sell them for $$$$$.  There are plenty of people in golf with too much disposable income.

Thanks for that post, Tom.  Doesn't Brian's advice apply to the business of golf course architecture too?

[BVince]

Bryon:  The real value of the book is to save you from spending $$$ to go see a course which isn't all it's cracked up to be.  That's worth a lot, if you agree with my point of view.

Tom, I understand the intentions of the book, supply & demand, and even the collector's value of the book.  I also know the following (especially of people on this site) and the high regard for the book.  

My issue, and maybe I am unique in this, is I don't want to be swayed by other people's opinions of a golf course.  Rarely, do I hate playing a golf course, so I like experiencing it, looking at the contours, routing, hazards, and forming my own ideas.  When I read your book, I could not help but to think about your opinion of a course I was playing before I even stepped foot on the property.  

I guess if I will only be in one place and had a small chance to play there, then I would take your numbering system into consideration but choose not to read the comments.  Those I can create by analyzing what I like without a subconcious bias from reading the thoughts of one of the best architects that ever graced our game.

[Kalen Braley]

The actual market price is all about supply and demand.  There have been a couple of articles written about the book in recent years (one in The Wall Street Journal) which raised the demand significantly and drove up the price for a while.  With 12,000 copies in print the book shouldn't be worth even $400, but it's got a following, and as Brian Morgan always told me, the real way to make money in the golf business is to do limited-edition works and sell them for $$$$$.  There are plenty of people in golf with too much disposable income.

Tom,

Thats all fine and good, but outside of those first 1000 where you were able to get $100 for most of them, I'm guessing pretty much all the rest went for under $50. So while the big money is out there being made on them now, unfortunately you and your publisher aren't realizing any of that. 

All the more reason to release 500 here and 500 there, and if you space the releases out far enough, you could likely get $200+ each for em.  Just saying!! 

[Andy Doyle]

The complete history of the book is as follows:

Cool, thanks.

AD

[Tom_Doak]

Rich G:

Absolutely, yes, one can command a higher fee as a designer when one only builds a couple of courses per year ... although most designers, once they establish themselves at a high fee, try to sign up as many projects as they can at that price point!

Brian's rule of thumb also applies to Brian Morgan framed photos, Linda Hartough limited-edition prints, Scotty Cameron putters, Tiger Woods' appearance fee, David Leadbetter's lesson fee, "the only 36-hole Jack Nicklaus design in Timbuktu", and nearly every other aspect of the golf business.  What can I say?  Brian is a canny Scotsman.


Bryon:  I appreciate your point of view and I am glad that I was able to go see all of those courses myself at an age before someone else had told me what was important (or not) in golf course architecture.  But, if you really want to avoid bias, young man, you should get the hell off Golf Club Atlas !!! 

[Mike Nuzzo]

My issue, and maybe I am unique in this, is I don't want to be swayed by other people's opinions of a golf course.  

Why would you be swayed?

I prefer as many opinions as I can get - either going to play a course or designing a course - my opinion included. 
And in the end I get to choose, and once I chose - I own my choice - irregardless of whose it was originally.

And in this instance I don't have the time to see every course in England.
I've already mapped out a route with the GC as a guide so that when I do - I can make it meaningful or choose to wing it when there.

Peace.

Cheers.

[BVince]

But, if you really want to avoid bias, young man, you should get the hell off Golf Club Atlas !!! 

Really? 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

One of the greatest joys of GCA is that we have easy access to Tom Doak. What a priveledge it is!

[PCCraig]

Tom--

Any chance of publishing a GolfClubAtlas.com edition for you GCA buddies? We could donate the proceeds to Ran / a foundation / Your Checking Account!

The only access I have to Guide is through a library in my hometown, the problem lies in that they won't let you check it out.

[Scott Stambaugh]

The complete history of the book is as follows:

First Edition:  40 copies printed on a dot matrix printer, November 1988.  No pictures.  There are some pirate copies around, but the original 40 were all distributed to good friends, so they are hard to come by.

Second Edition:  20 copies, same format as first, November 1989.  Distributed updates to the 40 owners of the first edition.

Third Edition:  limited edition of 1000 copies, fall 1994.  Gave the first 80 away to players at the Renaissance Cup, sold most of the rest for $100 each.  Hardbound, and edited to exclude comments somebody might have taken as "personal", but still no pictures.  Still have about 50 in my office, but stopped selling them when one was immediately resold for profit; recently sold a couple to raise money for charitable causes.

Fourth Edition:  Sleeping Bear Press, 1996.  Text barely edited from the limited edition above, but with pictures.  I think there were 10,000 of these.

Second Printing:  1997 or 98.  The only change was to put Stonewall instead of High Pointe in the Gourmet's Choice section.  Unfortunately, because those courses were alphabetized, there was a printing error and the text for Garden City Golf Club was printed for Durban CC as well.  This was fixed and anybody who sent their book back got a replacement, but there are still some "error" books out there.  I think this final print run was 2,000 copies.


Bryon:  The real value of the book is to save you from spending $$$ to go see a course which isn't all it's cracked up to be.  That's worth a lot, if you agree with my point of view.

The actual market price is all about supply and demand.  There have been a couple of articles written about the book in recent years (one in The Wall Street Journal) which raised the demand significantly and drove up the price for a while.  With 12,000 copies in print the book shouldn't be worth even $400, but it's got a following, and as Brian Morgan always told me, the real way to make money in the golf business is to do limited-edition works and sell them for $$$$$.  There are plenty of people in golf with too much disposable income.

Thank you for this information.  I found my limited edition #211/1000 in a bookstore near Stanford several years ago for $30.  What a find...

I would be less interested in an updated Confidential Guide with new golf courses as I would like to see how your opinions have changed toward courses in the book that you played so long ago.  Meadow Club, Claremont, Cal Club, MPCC (both) and even Pasatiempo come to mind as courses that may fare better in an updated version.  There are also some that I would bet might drop down. 

Scott

[Ian_L]

Do those of you in the golf business (architects, superintendents, authors, contractors, etc.) often find conflicts between your love for the game and the business side of what you are doing?

[Rob Rigg]

Ian,

I am not in the biz, but that is a great question that must be worth a thread of its own!

[Adrian_Stiff]

From the Renaissance Golf Design website:

"NOTE: Renaissance Golf Design reacquired the copyright from Sleeping Bear Press and plan a reprint in 2005 or 2006"

Have these plans been hashed?

A reprint would be nice, 4 or 5 of our members want one but the price is a bit crazy via the current sources. Tom mentioned he considered doing a small run and selling them at $100 a go. At least he'd get to keep the proceeds now he owns the rights, I suspect he could move a 1000 fairly easily.
As a book, I like it and I can't really find a course that I know where my scoring would be any more than a point either side of TDs, so in that respect its a good guide for me and I certainly agree with his take on Pebble, where he says something like "yes its in my top 10 of USA courses but its nearer the bottom than the top".
Perhaps as a guide its not comprehensive enough as it only 'tells' of the ones he has 'played' but with so many courses in the world no single person could do the lot, not many best courses are ommitted anyway.
I have toyed with doing a British top 1000 book a few times, but I'd do it under my pen name for fear of being lynched!

[Andy Doyle]

... but I'd do it under my pen name for fear of being lynched!

That's the problem.  I realize it started as a family and friends sort of thing, but in hindsight, it would have been nice if Tom would have published the original CG under a pseudonym.  Now he can't update it without without running the risk of the backlash he'd get from other architects.

[Matt Kardash]

haha yeah, tom is byron, you should get out of this place while you still can. This is one of those websites that you'll grow to hate but keep coming to for some reason. I started coming here in like 1999 when i was 17...and i'm still here!! 

[Ari Techner]

The complete history of the book is as follows:

First Edition:  40 copies printed on a dot matrix printer, November 1988.  No pictures.  There are some pirate copies around, but the original 40 were all distributed to good friends, so they are hard to come by.

Second Edition:  20 copies, same format as first, November 1989.  Distributed updates to the 40 owners of the first edition.

Third Edition:  limited edition of 1000 copies, fall 1994.  Gave the first 80 away to players at the Renaissance Cup, sold most of the rest for $100 each.  Hardbound, and edited to exclude comments somebody might have taken as "personal", but still no pictures.  Still have about 50 in my office, but stopped selling them when one was immediately resold for profit; recently sold a couple to raise money for charitable causes.

Fourth Edition:  Sleeping Bear Press, 1996.  Text barely edited from the limited edition above, but with pictures.  I think there were 10,000 of these.

Second Printing:  1997 or 98.  The only change was to put Stonewall instead of High Pointe in the Gourmet's Choice section.  Unfortunately, because those courses were alphabetized, there was a printing error and the text for Garden City Golf Club was printed for Durban CC as well.  This was fixed and anybody who sent their book back got a replacement, but there are still some "error" books out there.  I think this final print run was 2,000 copies.


Bryon:  The real value of the book is to save you from spending $$$ to go see a course which isn't all it's cracked up to be.  That's worth a lot, if you agree with my point of view.

The actual market price is all about supply and demand.  There have been a couple of articles written about the book in recent years (one in The Wall Street Journal) which raised the demand significantly and drove up the price for a while.  With 12,000 copies in print the book shouldn't be worth even $400, but it's got a following, and as Brian Morgan always told me, the real way to make money in the golf business is to do limited-edition works and sell them for $$$$$.  There are plenty of people in golf with too much disposable income.

Tom,

I regret to inform you that there are only a maximum 999 of the Third Edition left now.  The one you sold me a few years ago was completely destroyed when my house burned down in 2006.  It is one of the things I miss most from the fire as most everything else was replaceable.