The ideal redan ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Dugger's photo essay was very interesting.

From a playing perspective, where's the ideal tee location in relationship to the green elevation wise ?

I've always felt that redans with tees elevated well above the green diminished the playing options since vertical ball flight into the green was the dominant, if not the only trajectory.

Hence, as they may be pleasing to the eye, from a playability aspect I think they're a distant third.

That leaves redans with tee elevations equal to the green and redans with tee elevations below the green.

Which makes for the better hole ?

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

I like the look, and playability, of a Redan with a tee somewhat lower than the fortified green. Lawsonia's near-Redan 4th features this, with the combination of the uphill shot and play into the prevailing wind (often; the hole runs north-south and plays into the prevailing southern winds during the summer) means an added club for most players.

I think this kind of tee configuration adds to the demands of the hole, which ought to be quite rigorous, in my view. A running draw, even uphill, can still get near a back-left pin. It also adds the already visual intimidation of a classic Redan -- the classic left-front fortification bunker looks larger and more penal if one is teeing slightly below it.

[Adam Clayman]

What Phil said.  What fortification has higher ground in proximity?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat I find the interesting thing about you comment being a tee well above. I like a slightly elevated Redan to allow one to see the beauty of the defenses but agree with you when it is well above. It then impacts the ball flight too much.

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick:

I like the look, and playability, of a Redan with a tee somewhat lower than the fortified green. Lawsonia's near-Redan 4th features this, with the combination of the uphill shot and play into the prevailing wind (often; the hole runs north-south and plays into the prevailing southern winds during the summer) means an added club for most players.

If you hit into the prevailing wind, doesn't that detract a bit from the Redan's defenses?  I'm thinking the wind makes it easier to hold the green. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

I like a level tee, or slightly elevated but not too high.

One question looking at all those Redan photos - in modern play, should the bank be moved a bit closer to the green than some of the old timey guys did it?

[David Druzisky]

Jeff, elaborate please on your question.

Sorry I missed you at Farm Links.

DbD

[Phil McDade]

Patrick:

I like the look, and playability, of a Redan with a tee somewhat lower than the fortified green. Lawsonia's near-Redan 4th features this, with the combination of the uphill shot and play into the prevailing wind (often; the hole runs north-south and plays into the prevailing southern winds during the summer) means an added club for most players.

If you hit into the prevailing wind, doesn't that detract a bit from the Redan's defenses?  I'm thinking the wind makes it easier to hold the green. 

Jim:

Well.........it depends

For arguments sake, let's say the pin is tucked on the left third of the green (or where a good Redan pin ought to be). Wind is firm but not crazy, and against.

Here are three ways to play the shot (from a tee lower than the greensite, to assume Pat's argument):

-- Aim at the flag directly, hit a draw, and use the wind (as you suggest) to hold the green.

-- Aim at the right side of the green, or even the "bank" flanking the right side of the green, hit something of a running draw under the wind, and use the green contours/bank to shoot the ball toward the pin.

-- Aim at the "throat" of the green opening (for the player unable to hit a draw of any kind), hit something under the wind (or even use the wind to help stop the ball), and be faced with either a long two-putt (if this shot reaches the green), or pitch-and-putt your way to a par.

Option 1 requires lots of skill (assuming the Redan is playing at its proscribed length of @ 190 yds). That's OK, in my book, because it also comes with a higher degree of risk than either options 2 or 3, it seems. Misjudge the wind, and option 1 likely leaves the player in the front-left bunker with not a lot of green to work with (that is, green near the pin). Or, overcooking the draw could put the player in the bunker as well, or it could put them in other trouble areas surrounding the Redan (on the backside, e.g.). In short, option 1 is one that a player can best use the wind to his advantage, but the design of the Redan makes it a pretty risky shot.

Options 2 and 3 attempt to minimize the role of hitting into the prevailing wind on a Redan. They are less risky, but the player is also less likely, it seems, to get his ball close to the pin (or as close as a well-executed option 1 shot).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

I like the look, and playability, of a Redan with a tee somewhat lower than the fortified green. Lawsonia's near-Redan 4th features this, with the combination of the uphill shot and play into the prevailing wind (often; the hole runs north-south and plays into the prevailing southern winds during the summer) means an added club for most players.

If you hit into the prevailing wind, doesn't that detract a bit from the Redan's defenses?  I'm thinking the wind makes it easier to hold the green. 

Is it then your theory that the added length the hole plays by virtue of being into the wind makes it easier ?

That the heroic carry, which is longer into the wind, is offset by the green's ability to hold the ball, if you can hit the green ?

ie, 185 yards into the wind now plays at 195-205 and is easier to hit than 185 downwind, which plays about 175-165, with less club =higher trajectory ?

Interesting theory, unfortunately it doesn't fly.[/color]

[Brian Phillips]

The redan at Berwick was the absolute best for me.  As I recall  the tees were slightly lower than the green, the two bunkers and landform in which they were built obscured the landing area in front, and the left side of the green just broke into view from the tee. 

Totally agree.  I really do believe that a true Redan must have tees below the playing surface and also have bunkers as KBM describes that hide the 'ramp' up to the green.

[Gerry B]

i like the tee box lower than the green - ie chicago golf club (my favorite redan hole) / shinnecock / piping rock as examples

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick:

I like the look, and playability, of a Redan with a tee somewhat lower than the fortified green. Lawsonia's near-Redan 4th features this, with the combination of the uphill shot and play into the prevailing wind (often; the hole runs north-south and plays into the prevailing southern winds during the summer) means an added club for most players.

If you hit into the prevailing wind, doesn't that detract a bit from the Redan's defenses?  I'm thinking the wind makes it easier to hold the green. 

Is it then your theory that the added length the hole plays by virtue of being into the wind makes it easier ?

That the heroic carry, which is longer into the wind, is offset by the green's ability to hold the ball, if you can hit the green ?

ie, 185 yards into the wind now plays at 195-205 and is easier to hit than 185 downwind, which plays about 175-165, with less club =higher trajectory ?

Interesting theory, unfortunately it doesn't fly.[/color]

I remember Doak talking about a proposed Redan on one of his sites.  Maybe Old Mac.  He said he ruled out one routing for the Redan for this very reason: the prevailing winds ran against the player. 

195 to 205 into the wind easier to hold than 165-175 with the wind, on a firm green that slopes heavily away from me?  Into the wind sounds easier to me. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I remember Doak talking about a proposed Redan on one of his sites.  Maybe Old Mac.  He said he ruled out one routing for the Redan for this very reason: the prevailing winds ran against the player. 

That would seem to support my position[/color]

195 to 205 into the wind easier to hold than 165-175 with the wind, on a firm green that slopes heavily away from me? 

Redans don't slope heavily away from the tee through the entirety of the green, and, they tend to be large greens.

And, I'll guarantee you that hitting a 185 yard redan down wind is a hell of a lot easier than hitting it into the wind, when it's a one or two club length wind.[/color]

Into the wind sounds easier to me. 

Sounds like you haven't played many redans.

Which ones have you played ?  And, what's your handicap ?[/color]