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Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2008, 01:24:48 PM »
 8) If I took a week off work and came to Far Hills, NJ this summer or fall, could i volunteer my available hours to the USGA Architectural Archive project?

Alternatively, could I spend my week's time investigating what the existing archives have on Ottawa Park, home of the first US AM PUBLINX in 1922?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

TEPaul

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2008, 02:38:44 PM »
"Tom Paul, You misunderstood my question.  I have no interest in hearing again about why you think Merion turned to Macdonald. I DO NOT want to turn this into yet another Merion thread."


David Moriarty:

I certainly don't want to turn this thread into another one on Merion either. If and when I respond in detail I'll put it on the thread about your essay and certainly not on this one. And no, it seems you don't have any interest in hearing why Merion turned to Macdonald. That's a shame since that very thing is a good deal of the story of Merion East and the way the club went about creating Merion East. It also happens to have huge relevance to an accurate and critical review of your essay's assumptions and premises and conclusion, all of which are historically inaccurate and wrong.

You asked that this website critically review your essay when it was put on here but since that time about two months ago there is no question that is not what you want to see or hear, and certainly not from us here who've been studying this subject longer and who have more documentary material than you had or have, but which you will have. At that time, perhaps after considering all the material now available you will rewrite your essay essentially supporting the recorded history of Merion East, how it was done and who did it, as we have, and as Merion G.C. has.  
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 02:48:25 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2008, 02:58:23 PM »
"Tom Paul, You misunderstood my question.  I have no interest in hearing again about why you think Merion turned to Macdonald. I DO NOT want to turn this into yet another Merion thread."


David Moriarty:

I certainly don't want to turn this thread into another one on Merion either. If and when I respond in detail I'll put it on the thread about your essay and certainly not on this one. And no, it seems you don't have any interest in hearing why Merion turned to Macdonald. That's a shame since that very thing is a good deal of the story of Merion East and the way the club went about creating Merion East. It also happens to have huge relevance to an accurate and critical review of your essay's assumptions and premises and conclusion, all of which are historically inaccurate and wrong.

You asked that this website critically review your essay when it was put on here but since that time about two months ago there is no question that is not what you want to see or hear, and certainly not from us here who've been studying this subject longer and who have more documentary material than you had or have, but which you will have. At that time, perhaps after considering all the material now available you will rewrite your essay essentially supporting the recorded history of Merion East, how it was done and who did it, as we have, and as Merion G.C. has. 


Tom,  I said I did not want to hear it AGAIN.

But let's get back on topic of the USGA Archives, the topic of the thread.

Why is it that you feel some documents directly relating to the history of the architecture of certain courses ought to be censored?   The Barker Routing is a good example. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Peter Pallotta

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2008, 03:16:19 PM »
A brief note on the USGA AA.

Part of the plan is to make available online histories and related materials about significant courses. It is an evolving project whose final shape is still a bit unclear. But the idea is that these histories will link to other things and resources related to gca. The hope is that people will find that interesting and visit the USGA site more often.

Equally important is that the USGA AA also serve the traditional functions of an archive. That is, the archive is intended to collect and preserve significant historical materials related to gca. The treehouse here at GCA can be of great help in that regard. Identifying materials out there that need such protection would be of great help. My sense is that there are important materials still scattered hither and yon that are moldering away in dark corners. That stuff - to the extent it has historical value - needs a safe repository and the USGA AA is intended to provide that service.

Finally, it is also important is that there be a central place where reserach on gca can be conducted. It's a long term goal that the USGA AA will eventually become that place. Or at least central clearing house that can point people in the right direction for such research.

These are all very ambitious goals. They will all take a lot of time and dedication. But I think they are well worth it. And the guys at GCA can be of great assistance with materials, ideas and support.

Bob

Peter Pallotta

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2008, 03:17:16 PM »
I envision these histories as primarily ways to give a narrative flow to photographs, drawings and other materials that the USGA has. If done well, they will be mostly about linking different historical items on a course, items that would not otherwise be comprehensible to someone who was not already familiar with the course's history. They may often be in the form of short explanatory captions to those items.

By no stretch of the imagination will they be detailed histories. That sort of thing can only be done in a book or an essay. These reports, however, will link to such materials. The more such links the better is my view.

To the extent these little histories touch on controversial topics, it is my hope that the controversies (virtually every important course has them) will be duly noted and appropriate hyper-links provided.  But the USGA has no interest in taking sides. Its role is to provide the easiest, most appealing access to the basic historical materials. It wants to serve first and foremost as a repository. The USGA does not want nor is it in a position to pick sides.

The above are my own views. They are not those of the USGA, who may disagree with some or all of them. Heck, TEP may also disagree with the above.

But that is how I envision the gca evolution reports functioning. They will exist to serve the larger archival goals of conserving significant materials and making them accessible to researchers. But the hope is also that they will bring more people to the subject matter.

Bob   

TEPaul

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2008, 03:26:10 PM »
(Moved to the proper thread---Ran Morrissett's thread on D. Moriarty's Merion essay)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 03:42:27 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2008, 03:58:22 PM »
Tom,

I am answering here because this has to do with your views on whether information that might go against the prevailing wisdom should be fully disclosed, or whether it should be misrepresented, ignored, and concealed.   You and Wayne have a well established pattern of the latter, and I think that is extremely relevant to what kind of an "Archives" the two of you envision for the USGA.   

A recent example is the Barker Routing.  Wayne claims he has known about for years, but that it "slipped his mind."  Incredibly Wayne now also claims he also knew about the 1912 trip for years.   Either you guys are just trying to save face, or have been sandbagging us for years regarding Merion's history.   

A recent and benign example.   Despite your attempt below to soften this, both you and Wayne have indicated to me that you thought it was irresponsible and inappropriate for me to even include a mention of Barker's routing in my essay.  I find this to be outrageous, but typical of your long-time approaches to these documents. 

Can you please explain why you think I should have concealed the Barker routing?



 

David Moriarty:

I’m moving this post to the thread it belongs on and off the USGA Architecture Archive thread that I don’t believe it belongs on.



You said:
"Why is it that you feel some documents directly relating to the history of the architecture of certain courses ought to be censored?   The Barker Routing is a good example."


David Moriarty:

Censored?

I never said that about any documents relating to the history of the achitecture of any golf course. Where did the word and the idea of "censoring" anything come from? It didn't come from me. Who else could it have come from? Did it come from you? Show me where I said that. It seems you're the only one who used that word and idea. Perhaps you should stop trying to put ideas and words into other people's mouths----it really does get very misleading doing stuff like that.

What I did say is the H.H. Barker stick routing provided to the MCC Search Committee by an independent developer who had nothing whatsoever to do with what MCC did with Merion East is not very relevant to the creation of Merion East. The fact is, after the MCC Search committee recieved that letter from Barker to Connell and mentioned it to the MCC board, it was never mentioned again by anyone who had anything to do with the creation of Merion. Since the letter was written to Connell (and not MCC) on June 10, and since Macdonald and Whigam must have come to Ardmore almost within days (since Macdonald went back to NYC and wrote a letter to Lloyd in June of his and Whigam's observations about the Ardmore land) to have it recorded in a report to the board by July 1, 1910, it seems MCC turned to Macdonald immediately and never considered Barker or even mentioned him again.

That kind of event is probably worth something like a mention in a footnote but it clearly had nothing to do with the routing and design creation of Merion East which did not even beginning until about seven months later (early 1911 when Wilson and his committee were appointed and got to work in the winter of 1911 doing many of their own "courses" or "layouts" (the very thing we today call routings and course designs).

I most certainly wouldn't suggest censoring a mention of Barker and his stick routig, I'd only suggest it be treated for what it was in the move to Ardmore----eg of very little significance.

If either you or Tom MacWood want to imply it was some big deal in the creation of Merion East then be our guests, but I don't think the Merion history will or should treat it very seriously.

Of course if you or MacWood or anyone else could actually produce Barker's stick routing and it turned out to be very similar to the Merion East routing that would be an entirely different matter and it would be considered extremely significant to Merion's architectural history.


Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2008, 06:19:08 PM »
I know it'd be a ways off down the road, but me thinks the "letter to guests" at Sand Hills should be saved somewhere for this archive, as well as the Constellation Map.

Also, I think the original book about the founding and design of the courses at Bandon Dunes would be very beneficial.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2008, 10:36:43 PM »
Gentlemen, you both have said you don't want to turn this into another Merion thread, and yet you have, in the nattering back and forth stylistically, trying to gain an upper hand on an issue that has been beaten to death, and has, as far as I can tell, produced no realistic conclusions of pure fact.

As to the archive; do you go to the library expecting every book in it is factual and true?  Do you go to the newpaper office to research a question on an old event and completely believe that what you read in the paper as to the account of that happening is completely factual, without independent corraberation? 

If you go to the proposed USGA AA and find the document of Barker's stick map, does that conclusively prove anything?  I say no.  You go to an archive to collect the available materials (documents, old photos, letters from principles involved, etc.,) and then you draw your own conclusions. 

I've been trying hard to get a handle on the phenomenon we are witnessing between these combatants on this underlying theme of who is the correct researcher and historian.  I've sadly come to the realization that if these gentlemen are going to continue this seemingly endless sniping, that they must at least think some of us are reading it for illumination, and they have some notion that their position will be held as the truth and light of all these historical/research methods and exercises.  I'd hate to think that they only believe they are using this open forum for themselves when they could do this on IM and come back to the forum if they can ever achieve a consensus on anything beyond -the sun will come up tomorrow!

In trying to understand the methods and attitudes of "real" historians, I came across this statement from Prof Em., William Harris of Middlebury, when writing an essay on the most credible source of the Ancient Roman Empire.  (BTW) he seems to point to Livy and Tacitus as the most reliable chronicalers of the history, and even warns that Ceasar's first hand commentaries of the Gallic Wars was basically 'propoganda' and not to be given full confidence as accurate historical facts since he had a big agenda.

But, I digress... and in the absence of Dr. Katz coming on here and straightening this mess of emotion and pride out about whose history and research methods are best, consider what a real Shrink said about these kind of historical debating academies and motivations and know you all aren't the first or last guys to claim historical scholarly upperhandedness:

Quote
One thinks of the modern historians who ignore the Civil War, WWI and WWII as areas of historical research, while delving deep into the fragmented and muddled annals of the ancient world. Jung pointed out long ago this psychological fascination with the past as part of the search for the self in the annals of one's own personal history. Prof William Harris

I ask respectfully, are these endless arguments over fragmented and sometimes muddled annals of a certain golf course not a manifestation of personal inner needs to define self... by all parties so engaged?  If so, is this how you all want to define yourselves to the group at large, if indeed you are writing you ideas for more than eachother? 

Bottom line, put the documents and photos and actual period material you have in the darn archive and trust people who actually are motivated to learn or query this stuff to be smart enough to draw their own conclusions.  Othewise you insult everyone's intelligence by trying to tell them over and over that your version is correct.  You only needed to say it once, the consumer of the material and essays can take it from there!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

TEPaul

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2008, 11:17:25 PM »
"I am answering here because this has to do with your views on whether information that might go against the prevailing wisdom should be fully disclosed, or whether it should be misrepresented, ignored, and concealed.   You and Wayne have a well established pattern of the latter, and I think that is extremely relevant to what kind of an "Archives" the two of you envision for the USGA."

David Moriarty:

I have no problem at all with information that goes against the prevailing wisdom of some club's architectural record if it can be proven as relevent to a course's architectural history. You haven't done anything close to that with your idea of Macdonald's contribution to Merion East. As to Barker, I really don't know what your point in including him was other than as a footnote that an independent developer got him to do a stick routing that MCC obviously did not accept or use.




"A recent and benign example.   Despite your attempt below to soften this, both you and Wayne have indicated to me that you thought it was irresponsible and inappropriate for me to even include a mention of Barker's routing in my essay.  I find this to be outrageous, but typical of your long-time approaches to these documents."

Again, the Merion documented architectural record indicates Barker's stick routing provided to developer Connell was not relevent to the creation of Merion East. 

"Can you please explain why you think I should have concealed the Barker routing?"

I never said a thing about you concealing Barker's routing. It's just not important to the creation of Merion East. It is an interesting footnote in the entire move to Ardmore but if it had never been mentioned it certainly wouldn't have had an effect on the accurate creation story of Merion East.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 11:18:58 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2008, 11:28:58 PM »
"I know it'd be a ways off down the road, but me thinks the "letter to guests" at Sand Hills should be saved somewhere for this archive, as well as the Constellation Map.
Also, I think the original book about the founding and design of the courses at Bandon Dunes would be very beneficial."

Tony:

Very good suggestions.

Early on in the discussions about setting up the USGA Architecture Archive the USGA's Museum/Library director mentioned the various methods of architectural development amongst architects over the course of American architecture is an interesting subject to explore. For instance, some architects have heavily relied on comprehensive plans to build to and others have basically built as they go with much less reliance on plans.

There are some today who generate extremely comprehensive computer (CAD) plans and then others who do little of that and build on the ground beginning with something like the Sand Hills Constellation map. I have been in touch with Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore, amongst others, as this archive as been developed and this very subject was a topic of discussion recently.

The point here is not to imply that one method is better than any other, just that architects have and still do go about architectural development in this way very differently and that should be pointed out in this archive.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 11:31:08 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2008, 12:16:27 AM »
Te
Is the ASGCA establishing a competing archive?

TEPaul

Re: USGA Architectural Archive
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2008, 09:15:04 AM »
"Te
Is the ASGCA establishing a competing archive?"


No. The ASGCA has collaborated with the USGA AA initiative. However, the ASGCA has conducted their own audio/video architect interview program as well as develop a process or procedure whereby architects may more effeciently preserve their material. You know Michael Hurzdan, don't you? If so, you might want to ask him about this. I believe he has had as much to do with that effort as anyone in the ASGCA.

Essentially, the USGA AA would like to develop any effective sources of significant information and material. Obviously, the first step is to understand better what's out there and where it is.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 09:17:20 AM by TEPaul »

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