[Thomas MacWood]

"Case in point, the USGA and ASGCA are working on documenting architectural history and as noted, TePaul, among others is actually working on that.  I would love to hear an update from him on how that is going, personally, but that is a subject for another day.  However, while it makes sense that someone interested in gca history would participate here, I doubt the USGA ever seriously considered this site as a resource in and of itself."


JeffB:

It's coming along nicely, I think, but it is not a simple process, all things considered. We hope it will open in the fall (The Internet component of the USGA's Architecture Archive). At first it will likely concentrate on four clubs and courses, as a first step and as an example for what will follow on a national or perhaps global basis someday.

Does the USGA look at GOLFCLUBATLAS.com as a resource? Sure it does in some ways. There are way more people out there who read GOLFCLUBATLAS than probably most on here realize---way, way more and that certainly includes the USGA. They even once talked to some of us on here about a discussion group component to the USGA Architecture Archive and basically two of us on here said: "Are you nuts, if you want to do that you sure will need some very tight and serious daily "monitoring" unless you want the kind of constant train-wrecking that happens on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com."

So I'm not sure what will happen in that way. What we're pushing for is maximum interactivity some day to simply make ease of information access as good as it can be with the tech tools available today. Maybe that will just include a link to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com

But I'll tell you one thing and that is we always will get back to good old human nature with any of this. If I see a guy like David Moriarty puts a statement on this website like he did the other day….

“"Not only that but the USGA is relying on you to put together a meaningful archive?  Yikes."

…..This website will get less cooperation from what I’m involved in and not more cooperation. This man and a few others will just have to start using his head better for things to work out well.

TE
What four clubs/courses will you be concentrating on?

[TEPaul]

#2, Merion, Oakmont, Oakhill will be first primarily because their material is the most ready to go right now.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom P,

You have mentioned in the past that there are some 50 or so courses that the USGA is interested in getting course evolution histories for. Can you let us know which ones these are?

If this is information that the USGA ios not yet interested in releasing that will certainly be understood.

[Adam Clayman]

Chicago GC needs to be included.

[TEPaul]

Adam:

It certainly will be. It's just that everything can't be done at once. There's only so much manpower available. I will see if it's OK to post the list of courses and architects to be concentrated on in the first phase (I think they may've been on another thread on here in the past). I don't see why not as the archive most certainly is looking for all the leads and resources it can find to identify interesting American architectural material out there----eg plans, drawings, photos (aerial/on-ground) and any other related material (textual) pertinent and significant to the development and evolution of American golf arhitecture. I just can't imagine a better resource for this than the really good researchers and contributors who participate on this website.

If anyone thinks they have something or knows of something and where it is that should be used or is useful it would probably be best at first to contact:
Bob Crosby
Craig Disher
Dunlop White
Wayne Morrison
Tom Paul

[Steve Lang]

TEP,

Is the USGA going to include all the courses at which it has held it's championship tourneys?

s

[Thomas MacWood]

How extensive is the architectural material for those courses?

[TEPaul]

Matter of fact, it sure might be an interesting excercise to see GCA develop a list of what it thinks are the approximately 50 most significant American courses architecturally and the approximately 15 most important American architects to at first concentrate on and compare the list with the the USGA Archive's current list. It would also be very helpful if something could be included with each as to why they should be on the lists.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

It all depends on the course and club. Some obviously have more material than others.

[TEPaul]

"TEP,
Is the USGA going to include all the courses at which it has held it's championship tourneys?"

Steve:

Not necessarily but USGA championship venues has been a very serious consideration.

[SPDB]

I would think that rather than focusing on those clubs that have the most material to offer, you would focus on clubs with the most significance and then set about collecting material, regardless of whether such club's currently possess the most material. As this website evidences, material can be found by the intrepid.

Which clubs are the most significant is certainly debateable, but certainly few would argue that to the USGA, the logical answer is its five founding members, Brookline, Shinnecock, Newport, Chicago and St. Andrew's.

No?

I've been trying to follow the progress of this with great interest; to the extent you can, please keep us updated. Good luck with the project.

[TEPaul]

SPDB:

The USGA Architecture Archive will be coming out of the gate soon. It's been a few years in planning and approval and of necessity it needed to kind of dovetail time-wise and other-wise with the opening of the impressive Arnold Palmer History Center which is now open (attached to Golf House). It is all part of the USGA's upgraded Museum/Library. Essentially in the last 3-4 years the planning, overseeing, construction and opening of this Palmer Center has completely consumed Rand Jerris (USGA Museum/Library Director) and his entire staff (he should probably take a really good and long vacation right about now after all that ).

There will be a number of areas concentrated on and certainly the significance of old architectural material is very much one of them and that means a renewed effort by the USGA to work with clubs to begin to do it for themselves. Identification and preservation of significant and important material is obviously a pretty huge and complex effort.

And by all means, suggestions and recommendations are very welcome and certainly from this website. During the planning stages networking in ways with GOLFCLUBATLAS.com was frequently mentioned.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom,

You may be interested to know that Stockport Golf Club put the whole of their centenary book on line: http://www.stockportgolf.co.uk/download_brochure.html

I'm involved in other such books (Sandy Lodge, Mere, Ringway, Delamere Forest, Hartlepool are all on the go at the moment, which is why I can never find time to play golf) and I'm encouraging them to share their historical and architectural history with other interested parties via their websites.

I'm not saying it's as comprehensive as the Flynn monologue will be, but it might serve as an example of just how easy it is to get this material on the net.

Hope you flourish,

Mark.

[TEPaul]

You guys see that Mark Rowlinson there? He's from England and as far as I'm concerned from our perspective this whole idea came from him over five years ago. Now, I want you all to kneel towards England and thank him!

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Now I know! I had been wondering why England suddenly took a lurch to the west.

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Did you know that at some point in 1940 or 1941 Churchill actually got a team of crack engineers to look into the possiblity of detaching GB and having it dragged over here behind a big ship so all you guys could be over here amongst friends who could protect you better against the Hun?

[BCrosby]

A brief note on the USGA AA.

Part of the plan is to make available online histories and related materials about significant courses. It is an evolving project whose final shape is still a bit unclear. But the idea is that these histories will link to other things and resources related to gca. The hope is that people will find that interesting and visit the USGA site more often.

Equally important is that the USGA AA also serve the traditional functions of an archive. That is, the archive is intended to collect and preserve significant historical materials related to gca. The treehouse here at GCA can be of great help in that regard. Identifying materials out there that need such protection would be of great help. My sense is that there are important materials still scattered hither and yon that are moldering away in dark corners. That stuff - to the extent it has historical value - needs a safe repository and the USGA AA is intended to provide that service.

Finally, it is also important is that there be a central place where reserach on gca can be conducted. It's a long term goal that the USGA AA will eventually become that place. Or at least central clearing house that can point people in the right direction for such research.

These are all very ambitious goals. They will all take a lot of time and dedication. But I think they are well worth it. And the guys at GCA can be of great assistance with materials, ideas and support.

Bob

 

[DMoriarty]

A brief note on the USGA AA.

Part of the plan is to make available online histories and related materials about significant courses. It is an evolving project whose final shape is still a bit unclear. But the idea is that these histories will link to other things and resources related to gca. The hope is that people will find that interesting and visit the USGA site more often.

Equally important is that the USGA AA also serve the traditional functions of an archive. That is, the archive is intended to collect and preserve significant historical materials related to gca. The treehouse here at GCA can be of great help in that regard. Identifying materials out there that need such protection would be of great help. My sense is that there are important materials still scattered hither and yon that are moldering away in dark corners. That stuff - to the extent it has historical value - needs a safe repository and the USGA AA is intended to provide that service.

Finally, it is also important is that there be a central place where reserach on gca can be conducted. It's a long term goal that the USGA AA will eventually become that place. Or at least central clearing house that can point people in the right direction for such research.

These are all very ambitious goals. They will all take a lot of time and dedication. But I think they are well worth it. And the guys at GCA can be of great assistance with materials, ideas and support.

Bob

Bob,  What will happen when information comes out that is inconsistent with the lore of some of these clubs?  Is the USGA Archives beholden to the truth, or the clubs? 

[SL_Solow]

David;  You are a friend of mine.  I have stayed out of the "Merion" threads so far.  Don't perceive this note as my "taking sides".  But clearly your response is exactly what posters have been complaining about with respect to the inability of both "sides" to contain their arguments and allow other discussions to be ongoing.  Information regarding the progress of this archive is clearly of interest.  Diverting the discussion is not and does not reflect well on you.  When the material becomes available we can all make our own judgments.

[DMoriarty]

Shelly,  Sorry you see it differently, but I meant no ill will with the question, and believe it to be an important one. 

I have read this to be a research resource and I think that is a great idea, but sometimes Clubs or other interested parties might find themselves at odds with the interests of researchers.  Should not this be considered  before this project gets going? 

[Chris Garrett]

Bob and Tom,

For clarification, and to perhaps settle David's concerns, is the purpose of the USGA AA to 1) conduct the research itself and present findings or 2) to provide materials which can be used a research tool?  In the second case, the USGA would relieve itself of all queries as to the accuracy of the information it was providing.

[TEPaul]

"For clarification, and to perhaps settle David's concerns, is the purpose of the USGA AA to 1) conduct the research itself and present findings or 2) to provide materials which can be used a research tool?  In the second case, the USGA would relieve itself of all queries as to the accuracy of the information it was providing."

ChrisG:

Good questions. I don't know if that can or should be answered at this point but I would certainly say definitely #2. As to #1, I doubt this USGA Architecture Archive wants to get into any kind of real advocacy, at this point, if ever. I'm pretty sure it would never want to be some entity that had the kinds of things going on within it that are going on here over Merion.

I would think the kinds of essays we're talking about on here on Merion's history would probably be best at the archive of the club itself.

[BCrosby]

David -

It's always nice to run across someone who is certain of the "truth".  The rest of us pikers will continue to muddle along as best we can.

Shivas -

I like your list. I hope someday they will all be covered.


I envision these histories as primarily ways to give a narrative flow to photographs, drawings and other materials that the USGA has. If done well, they will be mostly about linking different historical items on a course, items that would not otherwise be comprehensible to someone who was not already familiar with the course's history. They may often be in the form of short explanatory captions to those items.

By no stretch of the imagination will they be detailed histories. That sort of thing can only be done in a book or an essay. These reports, however, will link to such materials. The more such links the better is my view.

To the extent these little histories touch on controversial topics, it is my hope that the controversies (virtually every important course has them) will be duly noted and appropriate hyper-links provided.  But the USGA has no interest in taking sides. Its role is to provide the easiest, most appealing access to the basic historical materials. It wants to serve first and foremost as a repository. The USGA does not want nor is it in a position to pick sides.

The above are my own views. They are not those of the USGA, who may disagree with some or all of them. Heck, TEP may also disagree with the above.

But that is how I envision the gca evolution reports functioning. They will exist to serve the larger archival goals of conserving significant materials and making them accessible to researchers. But the hope is also that they will bring more people to the subject matter.

Bob   

[DMoriarty]

David -

It's always nice to run across someone who is certain of the "truth".  The rest of us pikers will continue to stumble along as best we can.

Shivas -

I like your list. I hope someday they will all be covered.


I envision these histories as primarily ways to give a narrative flow to photographs, drawings and other materials that the USGA has. If done well, they will be mostly about linking different historical items on a course, items that would not otherwise be comprehensible to someone who was not already familiar with the course's history. They may often be in the form of short explanatory captions to those items.

By no stretch of the imagination will they be detailed histories. That sort of thing can only be done in a book or an essay. These reports, however, will link to such materials. The more such links the better is my view.

To the extent these little histories touch on controversial topics, it is my hope that the controversies (virtually every important course has them) will be duly noted.  But the USGA has no interest in taking sides. Its role is to provide the easiest, most appealing access to the basic historical materials. It wants to serve first and foremost as a repository. The USGA does not want nor is it in a position to pick sides.

The above are my own views. They are not those of the USGA, who may disagree with some or all of them. Heck, TEP may also disagree with the above.

But that is how I envision the gca evolution reports functioning. They will exist to serve the larger archival goals of conserving significant materials and making them accessible to researchers. But the hope is also that they will bring more people to the subject matter.

Bob   

Bob.  Point taken.  I should have said "the search for truth."

I am not certain of any truth, but I know researchers like to think that they are after the truth, and I have a hunch that some of these clubs might just prefer to let sleeping dogs lie.  Or that they are so convinced of their understanding is correct they they may be hesitant to even allow potentially ambiguous information out there. 

My concern is that either the clubs or those in charge will cleanse the material of anything potentially controversial.  For example, if there is evidence of an old plan or involvement by a previously unrecognized or long forgotten designer, but the powers at the club or the USGA don't think the plan or involvement was significant, does the evidence go in or stay out?   

Who decides what goes in and what stays out?  Won't those deciding go a long ways toward deciding the "history" of the course?   

If the USGA is not interested in taking sides, then why not just compile and cross-reference the material, and place it in a timeline for each course, and let the readers draw their own conclusions? 

[Peter Pallotta]

Bob C

thanks for the clear and concise primer on what the USGA architectural archive might end up looking like....eventually.  What you describe as the end goal sounds good to me.

I don't know anything about library science or the theory/practice of such archives, but it seems to me that this AA is a massive and complex undertaking, and that achieving even the more modest goal of simply finding/acquiring and "conserving significant materials and making them accessible to researchers" would be a wonderful accomplishment.

Peter

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