What architectural changes would you make

[Patrick_Mucci]

To a top 100 golf course.

Specifically, on what hole/s and what feature/s

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat:

I can't think of any I'd suggest, nor do I have the hubris to make the suggestion - especially when you ask about architectural changes, which I take to mean design.

But I have a feeling hubris is something in which you put much stock.

So how about you - what architectural changes would you make to a Top 100 golf course?

I am truly interested.  I don't doubt you have some in mind or that they would be worthwhile.  Please share.

[Mike Mosely]

I think the 13th green at torrey would make a great punchbowl!  It looks like it looking at it form the fairway, the green surrounds are shaped that way too.

Also, 8 should be a lion's mouth!  make the shaved entrances part of the green!

Oh...I forgot, torrey's not in the top 100:)

[Steve_Lovett]

I'll bite.....

12 at TPC Sawgrass.  It's not an inspired short par-4, and I'd guess it's widely considered the weakest hole on the course.  It particularly pales in comparison to the holes it immediately follows and preceeds.  It's no more than a layup and wedge to a partially blind green which sits behind humps, lumps, and bunkers.  It's not necessarily easy, but not interesting either.

I would open the view to the green from the tee, and configure the hole in such a way to tempt players to consider hitting driver to or near the green - and to create multiple layup options with varying degrees of difficulty and correspondingly different approaches based upon the strategy chosen and the execution of the strategy.  I'd have to think a bit about what exactly it would look like - but in theory it's the hole I'd select and the direction I'd follow.

[John Moore II]

Pat--I'll post something on this, but when are you going to post something magical about all those hole rankings we posted??

--I would change #9 at Pine Needles. Assuming the course owns the property to the right of the tee box, I would move the tee up and to the right a bit in order to make the hole driveable. I would also add in a grade behind and right of the green as a run-off (I can't remember if it has one all ready, I've never looked at the right side of the green).
-I think making that change would add something to the course, a real good short par 4 might be the only thing really missing out there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JKM,

Thanks for reminding me about that, I've been rather busy and had forgotten about it.  I made a note and will probably post this weekend.

Tom Huckaby,

I asked you first 

Patients, my friend, is the key to a doctor's practice.

[David_Elvins]

Pat Mucci,

Thats a very broad topic.  I haven't visited a top 100 course yet that I wouldn't want to make atleast one change on (other than perhaps St Andrews).

[Sean Leary]

Pat,

Can 12 at Garden City GC be restored?

[Mike Mosely]

Big hello to Pat and Tom Huck by the way...good to swing on your vine.  i like 12 at sawgrass...nice to have a shorty on such a tough course.  I like 4 too.

[Tom_Doak]

Steve L:

For a counterpoint, my understanding was that Pete Dye originally wanted to make the 12th at the TPC Sawgrass completely blind on the approach.  Commissioner Beman didn't like the idea, and essentially told him he couldn't do it.  It wasn't long after that, that Pete and Alice came up with the idea for the island green on 17.

The concept Pete wanted to build for #12 was used for the 5th at Long Cove and for several subsequent courses (Old Marsh, Firethorn, et al.)

Pat:

I actually got to make the one change I wanted to make -- restoring the three holes at San Francisco Golf Club.  I guess there are some members that are still unhappy about it, though.

[John Foley]

How about build some very bold greens at Cascata.

Ala Raynor or Travis

I liked the routing and with some bold greens cold be a very good course.

[Steve_Lovett]

Steve L:

For a counterpoint, my understanding was that Pete Dye originally wanted to make the 12th at the TPC Sawgrass completely blind on the approach.  Commissioner Beman didn't like the idea, and essentially told him he couldn't do it.  It wasn't long after that, that Pete and Alice came up with the idea for the island green on 17.

The concept Pete wanted to build for #12 was used for the 5th at Long Cove and for several subsequent courses (Old Marsh, Firethorn, et al.)

Pat:

I actually got to make the one change I wanted to make -- restoring the three holes at San Francisco Golf Club.  I guess there are some members that are still unhappy about it, though.

Interesting, Tom.  I'm not sure I'd have been a fan of #12 completely blind, but I think it would've been a bold move and would've no doubt generated much discussion.  In fact, I could have seen a blind approach on #12 being changed when the course was "softened" in the years after it opened.

Given the fact that 12 @ TPC is different from the Dye's initial vision, do you think it is a good hole as-is?  If so, what makes it a good hole?

[Mike Bowline]

I'll bite.....

12 at TPC Sawgrass.  It's not an inspired short par-4, and I'd guess it's widely considered the weakest hole on the course.  It particularly pales in comparison to the holes it immediately follows and preceeds.  It's no more than a layup and wedge to a partially blind green which sits behind humps, lumps, and bunkers.  It's not necessarily easy, but not interesting either.

I would open the view to the green from the tee, and configure the hole in such a way to tempt players to consider hitting driver to or near the green - and to create multiple layup options with varying degrees of difficulty and correspondingly different approaches based upon the strategy chosen and the execution of the strategy.  I'd have to think a bit about what exactly it would look like - but in theory it's the hole I'd select and the direction I'd follow.

Steve, #12 @ Sawgrass requires a drive to the extreme right side of the FW for any view of the green. Anything left of center sees only the top of the flag, or not even that if too far left. IMO, the rhythm of the course requires an "easier" hole between #11, #13, and #14, although #12 is not easy if any shot is struck with less than perfection.

I prefer to disagree and I would leave it alone.

[Gerry B]

here are a few that come to mind:

restore the green on 18 at Olympic (lakes)  back to the way it was a few years ago - i liked the tilt - even though Payne Stewart(rip) would disagree

lengthen the par 5  - 16th at chicago golf club - there is approx 50 yards behind the current green to accommodate the change but they would need to alter the range as errant practice shots might cause some safety issues - will never happen - just a thought.

bel air - restore the mae west hole  (12) /  restore the 9th hole back to its original design / reintroduce the fairway bunker on the second hole  where the depression is.

blow up the 16th hole at The National in Toronto for the 3rd time and make it a driveable risk / reward par 4 - with severe consequences for badly executed tee shots - a personal pet peeve at the moment.

relocate  the green on the 17th at Medinah #3 back on the ridge away from the pond the way it was before the rees jones makeover.

blow up the alps hole at fox chapel - beacuse the current version is weak at best.

restore the 5th at Pebble Beach to its previous incarnation- liked it much better before.

do something to improve the mediocre par 5 16th at Yale and relocate the green on the 3rd hole to its original location where the cartpath is.

[Tom Huckaby]

JKM,

Thanks for reminding me about that, I've been rather busy and had forgotten about it.  I made a note and will probably post this weekend.

Tom Huckaby,

I asked you first 

Patients, my friend, is the key to a doctor's practice.

And I answered:  none.  But I'll give you one I surely won't do:  what Gerry wants to do at Pebble Beach.  But of course you knew that. 

So I shall be a patient, and be patient.  I am genuinely curious what you will say. 

TH

[Mike Bowline]

At Medinah #3, hole #18, I would change the FW bunker on the inside of the dogleg to be a more severe bunker: deeper, nastier, diagonal to the line of play. I would make the bunker so severe that the decision of how much to bite off would be necessary on the tee. #18 has always seemed like the weakest hole on the course, even after it was dramatically altered after David Graham's win (don't know the exact year).

[Gerry B]

mike; they actually completely changed the hole recently  - in the last 3 years on #18 which i think improved the hole - especially the redan like green complex

[Steve_Lovett]

I'll bite.....

12 at TPC Sawgrass.  It's not an inspired short par-4, and I'd guess it's widely considered the weakest hole on the course.  It particularly pales in comparison to the holes it immediately follows and preceeds.  It's no more than a layup and wedge to a partially blind green which sits behind humps, lumps, and bunkers.  It's not necessarily easy, but not interesting either.

I would open the view to the green from the tee, and configure the hole in such a way to tempt players to consider hitting driver to or near the green - and to create multiple layup options with varying degrees of difficulty and correspondingly different approaches based upon the strategy chosen and the execution of the strategy.  I'd have to think a bit about what exactly it would look like - but in theory it's the hole I'd select and the direction I'd follow.

Steve, #12 @ Sawgrass requires a drive to the extreme right side of the FW for any view of the green. Anything left of center sees only the top of the flag, or not even that if too far left. IMO, the rhythm of the course requires an "easier" hole between #11, #13, and #14, although #12 is not easy if any shot is struck with less than perfection.

I prefer to disagree and I would leave it alone.

True, the best angle for the drive is the right side of the fairway - but it's just a bunt 3-wood most of the time up the right side.  The penalty for going left leaves an obscured view, true, however with the short yardage and a wedge in-hand, a partially obscured hole is not much of a price to pay.  

Traditionally, #11 plays as one of the 3-4 easiest holes of the tournament - but is strategically one of the best, with options.  I don't find #12 to be in the middle of "murderers row" in the same way a hole like #6 is.  From the 11th, the next hole with strategic "options" isn't until #16.  

I like the idea of a short par-4 hole at this point in the round with more options, and even a heroic drivable characteristic, as opposed to a one-dimensional layup to the right side and a wedge in.

Mike - Which hole(s) at TPC do you think are weaker than the 12th?  

[Mike Bowline]

Mike - Which hole(s) at TPC do you think are weaker than the 12th?  

I have never really liked #10 - the only strategy off the tee is to pipe one dead straight, or else you are in the trees. It also is the most tree-lined hole and maybe that is why I am not real fond of it, when compared to the other 17 holes. I feel #10 has a very interesting green however.

[Mike Bowline]

mike; they actually completely changed the hole recently  - in the last 3 years on #18 which i think improved the hole - especially the redan like green complex

Gerry, I agree the green complex is excellent. Three years ago, did they make any changes to the tee, fairway, or fairway bunker?

[Jim Nugent]

Turn back the clock at ANGC, cut down the trees they planted and rough they grew, move the tees up to around 7000 yards give or take -- all predicated on also requiring the older Masters ball during the tournament.

Medinah #3: rebuild many of the greens and maybe green complexes, to make them more challenging for the PGA pro game.

Pebble: turn Doak or C&C loose on the ordinary holes, and see if they can make them better.  Tom, if you see this and it's politic to answer, do you think you could improve any of those holes?  In this thought experiment, you are given free reign over routing, hazards, greens, moving earth, the whole nine yards. 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

I have a hard time imagining that I would make any changes to Pebble Beach.  But I've never really thought about it.  There are a couple of holes I think are not very good, but that doesn't mean I would be confident of building a new version that was (a) better and (b) fit into the course seamlessly ... that's much harder to pull off than most green chairmen realize.

For example, the new 5th at Pebble is a good enough hole, but to me that green doesn't feel like it belongs at Pebble.

[mark chalfant]

Inverness,

restore two front nine holes.  #7 was  a nice drive and pitch hole  # 8 was a stern 220 yard par 3.

Bright  Sand-   Goodbye !
get rid of the shiny white sand on all courses north of Mason Dixon line, replace  it with light  brown sand that  used to be prevalent

[Chris Kane]

I'd tighten the dress code at Garden City: totally unbecoming of such a classy club to allow golf without a shirt on.

 

[mike_beene]

17 and 18 at Pebble.Change the angle of 17 by moving tee a little left and green to right.Sun not so bad and long left in the water.As it is,the hole is just in a well located field to a green that has clowns mouth written all over it.Then 18 becomes a long par 4.As it is ,that lay up is bland and the hole is overrated due to its location.Then I would cut the tree in the middle of the front nine at Oakmont...don't ask why.