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Tom Huckaby

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2008, 10:23:53 PM »

"They" are the participants in this thread, posting in this thread, up above.

Did they have access to Hogan's medical records ?
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If what they say is true, it makes me lean toward favoring Hogan in this.  That's all I said.

I too don't know if it's true.  But if it is, I lean toward Hogan.

I believe I've said this three times now... here's hoping this time it sinks in.


It sunk in the first time.
You prefer speculation to fact  ;D
We have the facts on Tiger's knee.
We have speculation on Hogan's medical condition and the impact it had on his ability to play.
Until Hogan's medical condition and its impact on his ability to play is clearly documented, it's a worthless exercise.

There's a difference between playing with pain and playing when play further damages your body.

I can play with a good deal of pain.
I'm not so sure I could play if playing continued to make my body deteriorate, causing me additional pain and further impeding my playing ability.
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SO... you don't believe the claims stated in this thread?

No, I don't.
I don't think that anyone on this thread has produced any substantive medical evidence detailing Hogan's injury and its impact on his play.
Until that happens, it's all just hearsay.
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Pat:

Great.  Just careful when you say I prefer speculation to fact; an odd thing to say given I asked for facts.   To be honest, I really don't know what the facts are, and I figured you would know about Hogan - that's why I asked, admittedly getting an age-related dig in at the same time.  Bottom line is, as I said in my very first post, I'd like all the facts before I can say one way or the other about this. 

And sadly I guess I will never get said facts, as so much as been stated in here, well I don't know what to believe now.

If it is as you say, then yes, Tiger's is the bigger achievement.  If it is as others say, then it's Hogan's.

TH

Gerry B

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2008, 10:31:19 PM »
here is another one unrelated but deserves some consideration

babe didricksen zaharias won her 3rd us women's open at Salem CC wearing a cholostomy bag (correct spelling?) after cancer surgery which later took her life.

Jim Nugent

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2008, 10:39:25 PM »
Was Hogan able to play the rest of the season after that U.S. Open?  Or did he have to sit out six months to a year, getting additional surgeries, to recover from his effort at Merion?

I'm also curious how long it took Ben to play after his accident. 

 

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2008, 11:03:32 PM »
Hogan didn't play 18 holes for almost a year after the accident.  The 1950 LA Open was his first tourney back, lost to Snead in a playoff. 

He only played a handful of tournaments each year following 1949 due to the toll it took on his body.  Despite a light schedule Hogan won Player of the Year in 1950.

I'm certain Tiger will win Player of the Year 2008, but...

Hogan will always be the most impressive medical achievement.

Jim Nugent

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2008, 12:25:16 AM »
Quote
I'm also curious how long it took Ben to play after his accident.

Didn't explain myself well.  I meant how long Ben took to play each round, on average, after his accident.   Did he slow down a little or a lot? 

Doug Siebert

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Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2008, 01:34:50 AM »
Sheesh, people are making a lot bigger deal out of Tiger's injury than they should be if they are even mentioning it in the same paragraph as Hogan's, let alone in the same sentence!

I didn't see anything to indicate that Tiger was feeling pain while he was swinging, it was after he hit the ball -- it didn't affect his swing, other than knowing that on some swings it was gonna hurt like hell.  Been there, done that, have the painful memories from Ireland to show for it.

There are a lot of guys on tour who play in pain, Fred Couples has been playing in pain for years, and probably at times worse pain than Tiger was feeling.  Yeah, he didn't win a US Open while in pain but he didn't win them when he wasn't in pain either :)

The thing with Tiger is so far removed from what Hogan experienced that this whole thread is patently ridiculous.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2008, 01:48:46 AM »
Quote
I'm also curious how long it took Ben to play after his accident.

Didn't explain myself well.  I meant how long Ben took to play each round, on average, after his accident.   Did he slow down a little or a lot? 

Jim,

I don't know the answer for a FACT but it is hard to imagine him not being slower though I am sure his last round in 1950 (second of the day) was still faster than Tigers. The accident he suffered was horiffic and certainly left its scars. That Hogan chose not to share his problems with the world was his right. What he achieved afterwards was amazing.

Hogan was a player that altered the whole way of thinking and the approach that player took to the game. Tiger despite all the respect and admiration will probably never have such an impact. Tiger will however in all probability recover from his problems and continue his amazing feat of rewriting the history books.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2008, 07:45:09 AM »

And to imply that Ben was far less a physical specimen than Ben just shows how out of touch with reallity you are.

You must be kidding.

It's been said that Tiger Woods is one of the most fit athletes of his time, in all sports.

Was the same said about Hogan ?

Other than Frank Stranahan, no one worked out in the 30's, 40's and 50's.
Conditioning wasn't a part of a golfer's regimen.

How do you know that Hogan was "tough as nails" ?
What could he bench press ?
Did he run every day ?

There's no comparison between the two, Tiger is a physical specimen, a great athlete, who's a great golfer.  Hogan was a great golfer.
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Jeremy Rivando,

What leads you to believe that Hogan played a light schedule in 1950 ?
Which tournaments did Hogan play in, in 1950.

I know he played in the Crosby, The Masters and the U.S. Open, and that he didn't play in the PGA and British Open.  What other events did he compete in ?

Dan Boerger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2008, 07:56:20 AM »
Odd topic ... that's for sure.

But Pat's right we know lots about Tiger, lots less about Hogan, so it's mostly just conjecture

Not sure one trumps the other, both exceptional accomplishments.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2008, 08:01:30 AM »
We'd all be remiss if we didn't give credit to those with serious physical handicaps.

Recently, the cover of a golf magazine honored those with physical handicaps/impairments, who remain ardent golfers.

As far as mentally impaired golfers, I'd nominate TEPaul ;D

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2008, 11:01:26 AM »
...
But Pat's right we know lots about Tiger, lots less about Hogan, so it's mostly just conjecture
...

Hogan's authorized biography is out there for everyone to read. It contains information from interviews with his doctors. No one has interviewed Tiger's doctors and reported on it. The opposite of what you write is true. Tiger guards personal information, and we know less about him than we know about Hogan now.

Doug (below) has it exactly right.

Sheesh, people are making a lot bigger deal out of Tiger's injury than they should be if they are even mentioning it in the same paragraph as Hogan's, let alone in the same sentence!

I didn't see anything to indicate that Tiger was feeling pain while he was swinging, it was after he hit the ball -- it didn't affect his swing, other than knowing that on some swings it was gonna hurt like hell.  Been there, done that, have the painful memories from Ireland to show for it.

There are a lot of guys on tour who play in pain, Fred Couples has been playing in pain for years, and probably at times worse pain than Tiger was feeling.  Yeah, he didn't win a US Open while in pain but he didn't win them when he wasn't in pain either :)

The thing with Tiger is so far removed from what Hogan experienced that this whole thread is patently ridiculous.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2008, 11:16:55 PM »
...
But Pat's right we know lots about Tiger, lots less about Hogan, so it's mostly just conjecture
...

Hogan's authorized biography is out there for everyone to read. It contains information from interviews with his doctors.

What were his doctors names ?

What procedures did they perform ?
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No one has interviewed Tiger's doctors and reported on it.


Are you positive that Dr Thomas Rosenberg hasn't been interviewed ?


The opposite of what you write is true.

Tiger guards personal information, and we know less about him than we know about Hogan now.

Then produce the detailed information regarding Hogan's injuries, procedures and treatments.

We know the details surrounding the repair of the torn cruciate ligament, we just won't get the PO Report.

The only thing that prevents us from knowing more about Tiger is HIPPA.


Doug (below) has it exactly right.

Doug doesn't know what he's talking about.
The camera never focused on Tiger's face during his swing.
It was only after he contacted the ball that the camera went to his face.

We do know that Tiger was limping.
You don't limp unless there's pain associated with walking when you have no deformities that would otherwise cause you to limp.



Sheesh, people are making a lot bigger deal out of Tiger's injury than they should be if they are even mentioning it in the same paragraph as Hogan's, let alone in the same sentence!

I didn't see anything to indicate that Tiger was feeling pain while he was swinging, it was after he hit the ball -- it didn't affect his swing, other than knowing that on some swings it was gonna hurt like hell. 

That's a tribute to his will.
It didn't affect his swing because he wouldn't let it affect his swing, despite the pain.
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Been there, done that, have the painful memories from Ireland to show for it.

You had a torn ACL and a double stress fracture of your Tibia ?
That's some injury, especially when you're subjected to cold, damp weather.
I only broke two toes the night before departing for Scotland, and, it wasn't fun walking 36 every day, for 7 days, until someone told me to tape the broken toes to the good ones.
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There are a lot of guys on tour who play in pain, Fred Couples has been playing in pain for years, and probably at times worse pain than Tiger was feeling.  Yeah, he didn't win a US Open while in pain but he didn't win them when he wasn't in pain either :)

Not the kind of pain that Tiger was experiencing.
There's a difference between dull pain and sharp pain, especially when it's heightened during the swing.
I'm familiar with playing with pain, you get used to it, however, when the pain is intensified during the swing, that's a difficult pain to get used to, and a clear impediment to making a good swing, especially during a U.S. Open.
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The thing with Tiger is so far removed from what Hogan experienced that this whole thread is patently ridiculous.

Hogan won the Open almost a year and a half after his accident.
That's plenty of time to rehab broken bones.

Tiger won the Open two months after his surgery and only a few weeks after he suffered a double stress fracture to his Tibia, the large weight bearing bone in his leg, and, he further damaged his ACL with every round in the Open.

I'm not diminishing Hogan's injuries, recovery and 1950 Open win, I'm just putting them in chronological perspective
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Mike Golden

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2008, 11:24:49 PM »
At least one golf writer thinks Hogan's injuries dwarfed Tiger's:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/golf/article4153046.ece

Patrick Foster
As Tiger Woods limped his way to his fourteenth major title around the lush turf of Torrey Pines, his victory was as much over the pain in his left knee as the plucky attempts of Rocco Mediate.

Reeling from his second operation on the joint in five years, Woods was visibly affected by the after-effects of arthroscopic surgery barely nine weeks ago. “The upside is that I have been through this process before and know how to handle it,” he said at the time.

For all the hobbling and grimacing, however, Woods is not the first to land the US Open after coming back from surgery. Fifty-eight years ago, Ben Hogan, the Texan and one of the all-time greats of the game, stunned the world by emerging victorious at the tournament 16 months after a serious car crash.

The injuries that Hogan was carrying, however, make Woods's knee look like a chipped fingernail. In February 1949, Hogan was travelling in a car away from a tournament in Phoenix, Arizona, to Fort Worth, Texas, when through the morning fog a Greyhound bus smashed into their vehicle. Hogan threw himself across the lap of his wife, Valerie, taking the brunt of the collision and, it is generally accepted, saving her life.

Her husband, however, was left with a double fracture of the pelvis, a broken collarbone, a deep gash above his left eye, broken ribs, a mangled ankle, damaged bladder, a blood clot to the right lung, another in the left leg, as well as horrific cuts and bruises.

It took more than an hour to free Hogan from the wreckage, with the Associated Press issuing his obituary to every newspaper in the land. The only surgeon his wife thought could save him was in New Orleans, where storms had grounded all commercial aircraft. In the end, the US Air Corps gave permission for a training flight to ferry the doctor to him. Charlie Bartlett, a golf writer at the time, saw Hogan at his bedside, and wrote: “Here was a gaunt, wisp of a man. Frankly, I wondered whether Ben would ever walk again.”

Walk again he did. His return to the sport, 11 months after his accident, at the Los Angeles Open counts as one of the most amazing comebacks of all time. His legs had to be bandaged every day and he was in obvious pain, yet took second place after losing in a play-off to Sam Snead.

However, it was in the 1950 US Open that Hogan gave his greatest performance when, having to play 36 holes in one day for the first time since his accident, he parred the 18th to force a play-off after recording bogeys at 15 and 17. Needing plenty of rest that night, he returned to the course rejuvenated and shot a one-under par 69 to finish four strokes ahead of Lloyd Mangrum and six ahead of George Fazio.

Tiger was interviewed by ESPN's Kenny Mayne today and said that he did not feel pain on every swing and never knew when it would be there.  Taking nothing away from his achievement but compare that to Hogan's difficulty in even walking and winning the Open, in the heat, playing 36 on Saturday and 17 in a playoff the following day.


PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2008, 11:48:20 PM »
from the info we have, Hogan for sure

there was also an unnecessary delay, i believe, after the crash, as no one called for help right away because everyone assumed that some had already called :-\
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2008, 12:13:21 AM »
At least one golf writer thinks Hogan's injuries dwarfed Tiger's:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/golf/article4153046.ece

Patrick Foster
As Tiger Woods limped his way to his fourteenth major title around the lush turf of Torrey Pines, his victory was as much over the pain in his left knee as the plucky attempts of Rocco Mediate.

Reeling from his second operation on the joint in five years, Woods was visibly affected by the after-effects of arthroscopic surgery barely nine weeks ago. “The upside is that I have been through this process before and know how to handle it,” he said at the time.

For all the hobbling and grimacing, however, Woods is not the first to land the US Open after coming back from surgery. Fifty-eight years ago, Ben Hogan, the Texan and one of the all-time greats of the game, stunned the world by emerging victorious at the tournament 16 months after a serious car crash.

The injuries that Hogan was carrying, however, make Woods's knee look like a chipped fingernail. In February 1949, Hogan was travelling in a car away from a tournament in Phoenix, Arizona, to Fort Worth, Texas, when through the morning fog a Greyhound bus smashed into their vehicle. Hogan threw himself across the lap of his wife, Valerie, taking the brunt of the collision and, it is generally accepted, saving her life.

Let me see if I understand this correctly.
Out of a dense fog, a bus suddenly appears, and rather than steering to attempt to avoid the bus, in the nano-second after recognition of the impending collision, Hogan has the thought process and time to throw himself across his wife's lap ?

Do you really believe that ?
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Her husband, however, was left with a double fracture of the pelvis, a broken collarbone, a deep gash above his left eye, broken ribs, a mangled ankle, damaged bladder, a blood clot to the right lung, another in the left leg, as well as horrific cuts and bruises.

Broken bones usually knit and heal within six weeks.
Cuts and bruises within the same time frame.
Internal injuries are another matter, but, a year to almost a year and a half is usually ample time to recover.
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It took more than an hour to free Hogan from the wreckage, with the Associated Press issuing his obituary to every newspaper in the land. The only surgeon his wife thought could save him was in New Orleans, where storms had grounded all commercial aircraft. In the end, the US Air Corps gave permission for a training flight to ferry the doctor to him. Charlie Bartlett, a golf writer at the time, saw Hogan at his bedside, and wrote: “Here was a gaunt, wisp of a man. Frankly, I wondered whether Ben would ever walk again.”

I thought Garland Bayley said Hogan was extremely fit, more fit than Tiger.

He certainly suffered terrible injuries, but, those injuries occured almost a year and a half prior to the 1950 Open, giving Hogan ample time to recover, rehab and get back to playing golf.  To a degree I can relate to Hogan, Tiger, surgery, recovery, rehab and golf

Having broken my ankle in several places, my leg, my wrist, ribs, every toe and most fingers, repeatedly I feel qualified to comment on the recovery process in the context of broken bones and golf.  Having gotten into a major auto wreck a year ago August where my car was totally demolished, and my life saved by a last second effort to avoid bearing the brunt of a SUV hitting me at 60 mph when I was at a dead stop, I feel qualified to comment on impact avoidance.  Playing golf, less than six weeks after major surgery (6hrs), against doctor's orders, I feel qualified to comment
on the desire to play golf after a major trauma.  And, playing golf at Sand Hills when every walking step caused excrutiating pain in my feet qualifies me to comment on playing in pain.

You're viewing the severity of Hogan's injuries far removed from the context of the recovery period and the distance between the date of accident and the date of the Open.

Tiger played with a torn ACL and a double stress fracture of his Tibia, not six weeks or six months later, but during the Open.
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Walk again he did. His return to the sport, 11 months after his accident, at the Los Angeles Open counts as one of the most amazing comebacks of all time. His legs had to be bandaged every day and he was in obvious pain, yet took second place after losing in a play-off to Sam Snead.

A tribute to his tenacity and desire to compete, but bones heal in six weeks, not six months or a year.  His other injuries may have been cause for concern, but, not any broken bones.  They were well healed.
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However, it was in the 1950 US Open that Hogan gave his greatest performance when, having to play 36 holes in one day for the first time since his accident, he parred the 18th to force a play-off after recording bogeys at 15 and 17. Needing plenty of rest that night, he returned to the course rejuvenated and shot a one-under par 69 to finish four strokes ahead of Lloyd Mangrum and six ahead of George Fazio.

A great accomplishment for a healthy man, a greater accomplishment for Hogan.
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Tiger was interviewed by ESPN's Kenny Mayne today and said that he did not feel pain on every swing and never knew when it would be there.  Taking nothing away from his achievement but compare that to Hogan's difficulty in even walking and winning the Open, in the heat, playing 36 on Saturday and 17 in a playoff the following day.[/b][/color=green]

What heat ?

The mean temperature in Philadelphia on June 7-11 is 70-71 degrees.
The humidity was lower than normal in June of 1950.[/b][/color]


Forgotten in the Tiger-Hogan-Venturi efforts are those of Ed Furgol, who won the U.S. Open at Baltusrol with a withered arm.

Mike Golden

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2008, 12:18:56 AM »
It was pretty, pretty hot in Philly during that US Open, this is from the weather archives:

http://www.fi.edu/weather/data2/1950.txt

6   7   1950   90   63   0   0
6   8   1950   90   63   0   0
6   9   1950   89   63   0   0
6   10   1950   89   68   22   0

so 36 holes in temps that reached 89 degrees...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2008, 12:59:59 AM »

It was pretty, pretty hot in Philly during that US Open, this is from the weather archives:

http://www.fi.edu/weather/data2/1950.txt

6   7   1950   90   63   0   0
6   8   1950   90   63   0   0
6   9   1950   89   63   0   0
6   10   1950   89   68   22   0


Here are the temperatures for Upper Darby, Pa, not Philadelphia, on the dates of the Open.

You left off the playoff date, June 11th..

Upper Darby, Havertown, PA 19083

Date TmaxF TminF TmeanF PrcpIn SnowIn CDD HDD GDD
6/7/1950 91 57 74.0 0.00 0.00 9.0 0.0 24.0
6/8/1950 88 60 74.0 0.00 0.00 9.0 0.0 24.0
6/9/1950 88 59 73.5 0.00 0.00 8.5 0.0 23.5
6/10/1950 88 65 76.5 0.00 0.00 11.5 0.0 26.5
6/11/1950 85 61 73.0 0.17 0.00 8.0 0.0 23.0

In addition, the humidity was lower than normal during June of 1950

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2008, 01:00:36 AM »
Hard to imagine Rich Lerner would exaggerate something....

Let's see, getting hit by a bus versus hurting your knee while running or playing golf. Hmmmmmmm. That's a tough one, let me think about it.

LOL, good one
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jim Nugent

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2008, 06:28:16 AM »
Guys, I don't think the question is which initial condition was worse.  Hogan's was, by that big country mile.  The issue to me is who faced tougher health issues during the tournaments in question. 

Tom Huckaby

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2008, 10:31:28 AM »
Guys, I don't think the question is which initial condition was worse.  Hogan's was, by that big country mile.  The issue to me is who faced tougher health issues during the tournaments in question. 

Very correct, Jim.

And based on that, I think Pat has shown that Tiger clearly had it tougher DURING THE EVENT, and overcame more.

Let this be a lesson to one and all... when one's right, one's right... as distasteful as it may be, it doesn't hurt that much to admit an old "adversary" is on the ball.  Even if it is a first.

(emoticon hopefully unnecessary)

TH

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2008, 11:13:54 AM »
Hogan.  His chances of full recovery from the kind of vascular surgery he underwent were slimmer than any of us can imagine.

I always like Patrick Mucci's comments.  As for this:
Tom Huckaby,

Hogan's injuries were mostly bone injuries.
Pelvis, collar bone, ankle and rib.

Bones knit and heal rather well, sometimes becoming stronger.
I'm not diminishing the severity of Hogan's injuries, only pointing out that they were bone, not joint injuries with the possible exception of his ankle.

Hogan's injury occured almost a year and a half prior to the Open at Merion.
Tiger's most recent surgery, amongst previous surgeries, was less than two months before the start of this year's Open.  In addition, he sustained a double stress fracture of his Tibia while rehabing his knee.

I've broken my leg, ankle, wrist, every toe and several fingers, all from sports and Karate, and all after the age of 30.  They all healed quite well with a little time, although my wrist will never return to normal function.  
I'd rather break bones than have a torn ACL.
Recovery from broken bones is duck soup.
Full recovery from a torn ACL may never happen.

Venturi's 1964 episode was also amazing.
He too was told to quit, but, he didn't and the Open Trophy has his name etchted in to it for all time.

I believe that Tiger's conditioning is the equal of any golfer whose ever played, including Stranahan.
I find this very interesting.  With all the talk about (1) Tiger's great physical conditioning and (2) the "stresses" that Tiger's swing places on his joints, I think a terrific Tiger-Myth is being born.  My presumption is that the reason Tiger's knee is so messed up has little if anything to do with his golf swing, and everything to do with how he packed 25 or 30 lbs. of muscle onto his frame, and the mileage that he put on that knee running and doing whatever it is that got him into that condition.

Geoff Shackelford's site linked to this terrificly sensible article about what is likely going on with Tiger's knee:

 http://www.golf.com/golf/tours_news/article/0,28136,1815787,00.html

My view is that in all liklihood, this is not a golf injury at all.  It is a workout injury. Not that it matters.  Ernie Els' bad knee was a waterskiing injury.  Chris Dimarco's injury was a snowboarding injury.  Ben Hogan's injury was a hit-by-a-bus injury.

I just think that by any measure (seriousness of injury, heroic surgical measures, liklihood of recovery, etc.) Hogan's comeback was the greatest that modern golf has ever seen.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2008, 11:22:22 AM »
There was has not been any mention of Tiger contemplating quitting during this year's U. S. Open, we know that Hogan seriously considered it after his tee shot on 12 during the Final Round in 1950.  So I'm not so sure who was in the worse condition physcially...

My mother tore her ACL and it took a while for it to heal, but the Doctor told her that it would be stronger upon recovery than it was before the injury.

It's an interesting argument as to whether Tiger's injury was swing or workout related.  Neither would surprise me as I've heard his workouts are intense and it appears as if his swing does put a lot of stress on his body. 

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2008, 11:36:37 AM »
Venturi was in quite bad shape I believe...i think doctors told him that he could literally die if he went out for the 4th round

he also took salt tablets betweeen rounds I believe, which is exactly the wrong thing to do for a guy who's dehydrating......he also had on a t shirt underneath his golf shirt, which certainly couldn't have helped keep him cool
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2008, 04:30:21 PM »
...Ben Hogan's injury was a hit-by-a-bus injury.
...

This is where Pat and many others are getting this all wrong. Methinks they don't take time to read the factual information that has been put before them. All of Hogans injuries from the bus healed fine for the most part. But it was not one of the injuries from the bus that was the problem. The problem was that to prevent him from dying from dislodged blood clot(s), the circulatory system to his legs was rendered essentially useless. As severe as Tiger's problem may be it doesn't even begin to approximate Ben's problem.

Pat,

May I have your nurses phone number so I can call her and ask her to distract you so that you don't continue this line of misunderstanding? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2008, 09:47:18 PM »
Garland, et., al.,

I have a question for you and all the others who've chosen Hogan's effort as the biggest medical achievement.

Why, in the famous photo of Hogan hitting his one iron into # 18 at Merion, isn't he doubled over in pain ?

Why does his form remain impeccable long after the ball is off the club face ?

If he was in pain and/or discomfort, he wouldn't hold his follow through.
He'd double over, hold his leg and/or grimace, like Tiger did, which is a natural reaction to pain caused by exertion.  Instead, he remains picture perfect.  If he was in pain due to his swing or walking, he wouldn't exacerbate it by holding his finish long after the ball was off the clubface.
Even the toughest of athletes favor an injured limb.  Hogan fails to do so.

You're free to draw your conclusions, I've drawn mine.

Hogan was asked how he felt before and during the Open, and he responded that he was fine.
Was he lying ?

Secondly, you continue to fail to context the issue.
Hogan didn't play in the Open two days after the bus accident.
He played in the Open 16 months after the accident, which is plenty of time for his bones, cuts and bruises to heal.  It's also more than adequate time for his other injuries to heal.

Tiger's medical issues were contemporaneous/simultaneous with his playing in the Open, not 16 months removed.

Hence, it's an apples and oranges comparison you seek to draw.

Both Venturi's and Tiger's trials and tribulations are clearly documented for all to see.
Do we have the same level of scrutiny, available for viewing, for Hogan ?

Adam Messix,

Tiger was asked the question and he clearly stated that he wasn't going to quit for any reason.

He also indicated that his Father would have called him a stubborn ass for playing injured.

Chuck Brown,

No one has quarreled with the spectacular comeback that Hogan made.
That's not the issue.
The issue is the condition of the golfer during the U.S. Open, not six months earlier and not sixteen months earlier.

As to the blood clots, I don't buy the degree of their severity when Hogan returned to competition in February of 1950, let alone during the Open in June of 1950. 

Blood clots in the leg, or Deep Vein Thrombosis don't result in death. 
It's only when the clot moves to the lung that the risk escalates.
In the U.S. over 2,000,000 people a year develop blood clots in the leg, so, it's not an uncommon condition.

I'm sure that Hogan was under the direct supervision of a physician and that through either surgery, rehab and/or medication, his clot/s were stabilized enough to allow him to play golf.

Venturi's and Furgol's efforts were probably the equal of the others.

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