[Garland Bayley]

...
I asked you how Dr Ochsner could determine all that's been alleged prior to conducting invasive surgery and without the benefit of CT Scans, MRI's and Nuclear Medicine.  You responded by stating that it was an authorized autobiography and therefore it must be accepted as The Gospel, despite the clear conflict with accepted medical practices, diagnoses and prognoses.
...

How do you know that when you hit a wedge to a green there is a high probability that your ball will end up on the green? Everyone reading this thread knows how Dr. Ochsner knew, why don't you?

[Doug Siebert]

I don't put much faith in those accounts.

In James W Finegan's "Pine Valley Golf Club", published by Pine Valley Golf Club, on page 28 he describes the circumstances surrounding Crump's death.

We know that that account was totally inaccurate, totally incorrect.

Yet, you would have us believe that any account, published with the blessings of the interested parties, must be accepted.

I wonder how President Clinton's authorized autobiography will characterize his relationship with Monica.  I know what he told me when he addressed me and the rest of America on TV and told us, "Listen to me, I did NOT ....."

So if you are going to impugn claims that Hogan threw himself in front of his wife to try to save her, or that he was given little chance to walk and if he did only with great pain by putting forth counterexamples where (gasp!) someone has lied (or in the case of Clinton, suggesting that he will lie when he hasn't even written the biography yet!) why can't I do the same with Tiger?

I could claim the grimaces were all an act because Tiger decided he had to take the rest of the year off to get clean because the PGA tour called his bluff and was going to institute drug testing at the PGA and Ryder Cup this season and Tiger's steroid use would be discovered.  Next spring when he's less muscular and doesn't hit as far the excuse of having to curtail his workouts due to not wishing to aggravate his injury will provide the perfect cover!

Oh, I see, you say that Tiger's accounts of his injury and his response to it are beyond suspicion and it is only the accounts of Hogan and his doctor that we are to treat skeptically?  Well, if that's your argument, then there is no point arguing with a man who will twist the circumstances as he sees fit to match his world view.  As I've said before, you belong in politics, you could be the next Karl Rove.  Or work for a 527, there are multiple avenues to swift-boat either Obama or McCain this fall.

[Oh, and for those who don't get it from the tone of this post, I'm not really suggesting that's what Tiger is doing, just using that as a comparison to Patrick's behavior of selecting those who he wishes to believe and not believe based on what helps his position the most....I say this because there's always someone who will respond to something out of context so I want to nip it in the bud now!]

[Jon Wiggett]

I don't know why a search for the truth would annoy anyone, but, that seems to be the local climate on GCA.com. recently

I don't know why a search for the truth would annoy anyone, but, that seems to be the local climate on GCA.com. recently

Pat,

I think it a stretch to call what you are doing searching for truth; you are merely speculating and drawing up various scenarios at a place you have never been, under circumstances you have never experienced through a man you never knew.  At least that is my bet, but again you may have more insight and that would be welcomed.  Basically then Hogan lied about the circumstances and Valerie is complicit in the lie.

Patrick,

the reply to my message you sent me was certainly written in the same ill manner and aggresive way that you are complaing about. What I found particularly annoying, the point that Kelly makes, is your calling Hogan a liar. I noticed in your reply you ignored my mentioning this, a sign of .... na, whats the point?

To your point that Hogan had 16 months to recover from his injuries and Tiger not you are correct but to suggest that he was fully recovered is at best a sign of ignorance as to how easy or not it is to recover from major injuries. I suffered a serious accident over 16 years ago, though not as big as being hit head on by a bus. Despite them being fully recovered from a medical view point, I still feel the odd twinge now and again. I am sure there are others on this site with similar experiences.

Patrick,

I will polish my reading skills if you improve your manners

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't know why a search for the truth would annoy anyone, but, that seems to be the local climate on GCA.com. recently

Pat,

I think it a stretch to call what you are doing searching for truth; you are merely speculating and drawing up various scenarios at a place you have never been, under circumstances you have never experienced through a man you never knew.  At least that is my bet, but again you may have more insight and that would be welcomed. 

Basically then Hogan lied about the circumstances and Valerie is complicit in the lie.

No, I don't think he lied, I think you and others may simply be misinformed.

Steve Wilson indicates the following.

"Furthermore, I recall a report of Hogan disclaiming any credit for having thrown himself in front of his wife.  In reply to a question about it he said he acted out of a sense of self preservation by getting away from the steering wheel. 

And considering the amount of trauma he suffered, I doubt if he had a clear recollection of exactly what he did.  Trauma victims often don't remember.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick -

I have to agree with Kelly, and go further than he did. The last few paragraphs of your last post were not among your finest moments here, in my opinion. And I say that with respect - if it weren't for your usual high standards, I wouldn't be commenting at all. It seems to me one has to look long and hard (and have a misguided sense of truth-seeking) to find much to question about Hogan's experience in that accident, and his determination afterwards. Maybe I'm missing something, but the narrative that a man weaves around himself and about his life is deeply personal and significant; I don't think it's proper to question that narrative lightly, especially when remaiing silent about it harms nothing and no one.

Peter,

How do you reconcile your position with Steve Wilson's account ?

Furthermore, I recall a report of Hogan disclaiming any credit for having thrown himself in front of his wife.  In reply to a question about it he said he acted out of a sense of self preservation by getting away from the steering wheel. 

And considering the amount of trauma he suffered, I doubt if he had a clear recollection of exactly what he did.  Trauma victims often don't remember.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So if you are going to impugn claims that Hogan threw himself in front of his wife to try to save her, or that he was given little chance to walk and if he did only with great pain by putting forth counterexamples where (gasp!) someone has lied (or in the case of Clinton, suggesting that he will lie when he hasn't even written the biography yet!) why can't I do the same with Tiger?

Is Steve Wilson impugning Hogan's claims ?

"Furthermore, I recall a report of Hogan disclaiming any credit for having thrown himself in front of his wife.  In reply to a question about it he said he acted out of a sense of self preservation by getting away from the steering wheel. 

And considering the amount of trauma he suffered, I doubt if he had a clear recollection of exactly what he did.  Trauma victims often don't remember.

[/b][/color]

I could claim the grimaces were all an act because Tiger decided he had to take the rest of the year off to get clean because the PGA tour called his bluff and was going to institute drug testing at the PGA and Ryder Cup this season and Tiger's steroid use would be discovered.  Next spring when he's less muscular and doesn't hit as far the excuse of having to curtail his workouts due to not wishing to aggravate his injury will provide the perfect cover!

Oh, I see, you say that Tiger's accounts of his injury and his response to it are beyond suspicion and it is only the accounts of Hogan and his doctor that we are to treat skeptically? 

The body of evidence with respect to Tiger is contemporary and easily accessed.
The body of evidence with respect to Hogan is 59+ years removed and difficult if not impossible to access.

Surely you recognize the difference [/color]

Well, if that's your argument, then there is no point arguing with a man who will twist the circumstances as he sees fit to match his world view. 


That's not my argument, that's your convoluted representation.[/color]

As I've said before, you belong in politics, you could be the next Karl Rove.  Or work for a 527, there are multiple avenues to swift-boat either Obama or McCain this fall.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of James Carville.[/color]

[Oh, and for those who don't get it from the tone of this post, I'm not really suggesting that's what Tiger is doing, just using that as a comparison to Patrick's behavior of selecting those who he wishes to believe and not believe based on what helps his position the most....I say this because there's always someone who will respond to something out of context so I want to nip it in the bud now!]

I tend to form my beliefs on a fact supported foundation.
At first I rejected Tom MacWood's position relative to Crump, prefering to believe in what turned out to be a myth, until the evidence was clear.

How do you and others ardently support a position that hasn't been clearly substantiated by independent sources ?

Is the quest for independent source verification that frightening to you ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

the reply to my message you gave you sent me was certainly written in the same ill manner and aggresive way that you are complaing about.

What I found particularly annoying, the point that Kelly makes, is your calling Hogan a liar. I noticed in your reply you ignored my mentioning this, a sign of .... na, whats the point?

Can you show me where I called Hogan a liar ?
If you can't, then show me your good manners and retract the statement and appologize.

Kelly alleged that I called Hogan a liar.
That's Kelly's convoluted opinion.
He is from Texas, you know.

Steve Wilson is correct in his reference to recall after a serious trauma.
Furthermore Steve Wilson indicates that Hogan ducked to avoid the impact of the steering wheel.  Is Steve Wilson a liar ?

Before you take to name calling or supporting name calling, make sure you have all the substantive facts at your disposal.[/color]

To your point that Hogan had 16 months to recover from his injuries and Tiger not you are correct but to suggest that he was fully recovered is at best a sign of ignorance as to how easy or not it is to recover from major injuries.

Evidently your reading skills are lacking.
I never stated that Hogan fully recovered from his injuries.
Could you cite where I stated that ?
Please, try to be accurate when you quote or restate what I've written.
That's good manners, isn't it ?

You, Kelly and others are creating your own spin, ignoring my written words and inserting an interpretation that suits your purpose.[/color]

I suffered a serious accident over 16 years ago, though not as big as being hit head on by a bus. Despite them being fully recovered from a medical view point, I still feel the odd twinge now and again. I am sure there are others on this site with similar experiences.

How does that conflict with anything I've mentioned about Hogan's injuries ?  Haven't you been carefully reading my posts ?[/color]

Patrick,

I will polish my reading skills if you improve your manners


I think you need to polish both  [/color]

[Steve Wilson]

It was not my intention to impugn Hogan's motives.   I'm just stating a stray recollection that runs counter to the received story.  I recognize that Hogan's life story has been subject to a certain amount of mythmaking, but as I went on to say, Hogan's motives (did he or did he not act to save his wife's life) have nothing to do with the central question of this thread--  which was the biggest medical achievement, Hogan's victory or Tiger's.

I thought I made it clear that I come down unequivocally on the side of Hogan.  Full body trauma, emergency surgery that left his circulatory system compromised, fifty nine days in the hospital, significant weight and strength loss, elastic bandages to aid his circulation, hot baths every night... And let's not forget that even though he was receiving state of the art medical care for his time, in comparison to our time it would be nearly primitive.  And as for pain killers, once again relying on recollection,I think he took only aspirin.   There wasn't much else available in 1950, but it only acted as a painkiller but also as a blood thinner which must have aided his circulation woes.  Then again, he may have used the constant cigarette smoking as an anodyne.  And let's not forget that Team Hogan consisted of Hogan and Valerie as this was before the days of the entourage of trainers, agents, etc.

One last thing concerning Hogan's motives in throwing his body away from the steering wheel and across his wife's body.  There may be conflicting accounts because Hogan liked to tweak people.  No less a Hogan partisan than Dan Jenkins once remarked that Hogan's "mystique" arose from silence interrupted by half a dozen rude remarks.

In other words, Hogan was, in his own telegraphic, cryptic way, as good at winding people up as anyone on this board--and that includes Pat, Shivas, Barney, etc.  

And with that Parthian shot, I departh this thread.

[Jon Wiggett]

the reply to my message you gave you sent me was certainly written in the same ill manner and aggresive way that you are complaing about.

What I found particularly annoying, the point that Kelly makes, is your calling Hogan a liar. I noticed in your reply you ignored my mentioning this, a sign of .... na, whats the point?

Can you show me where I called Hogan a liar ?
If you can't, then show me your good manners and retract the statement and appologize.

Kelly alleged that I called Hogan a liar.
That's Kelly's convoluted opinion.
He is from Texas, you know.

Steve Wilson is correct in his reference to recall after a serious trauma.
Furthermore Steve Wilson indicates that Hogan ducked to avoid the impact of the steering wheel.  Is Steve Wilson a liar ?

Before you take to name calling or supporting name calling, make sure you have all the substantive facts at your disposal.[/color]

To your point that Hogan had 16 months to recover from his injuries and Tiger not you are correct but to suggest that he was fully recovered is at best a sign of ignorance as to how easy or not it is to recover from major injuries.

Evidently your reading skills are lacking.
I never stated that Hogan fully recovered from his injuries.
Could you cite where I stated that ?
Please, try to be accurate when you quote or restate what I've written.
That's good manners, isn't it ?

You, Kelly and others are creating your own spin, ignoring my written words and inserting an interpretation that suits your purpose.[/color]

I suffered a serious accident over 16 years ago, though not as big as being hit head on by a bus. Despite them being fully recovered from a medical view point, I still feel the odd twinge now and again. I am sure there are others on this site with similar experiences.

How does that conflict with anything I've mentioned about Hogan's injuries ?  Haven't you been carefully reading my posts ?[/color]

Patrick,

I will polish my reading skills if you improve your manners


I think you need to polish both  [/color]

the reply to my message you gave you sent me was certainly written in the same ill manner and aggresive way that you are complaing about.

What I found particularly annoying, the point that Kelly makes, is your calling Hogan a liar. I noticed in your reply you ignored my mentioning this, a sign of .... na, whats the point?

Can you show me where I called Hogan a liar ?

Your statement

'Let me see if I understand this correctly.
Out of a dense fog, a bus suddenly appears, and rather than steering to attempt to avoid the bus, in the nano-second after recognition of the impending collision, Hogan has the thought process and time to throw himself across his wife's lap ?

Do you really believe that ?'

I feel you implicate it, as does Kelly. Patrick. just because you don't use the word LIAR doesn't alter the meaning of what you wrote.

If you can't, then show me your good manners and retract the statement and appologize.

Kelly alleged that I called Hogan a liar.
That's Kelly's convoluted opinion.
He is from Texas, you know.

Steve Wilson is correct in his reference to recall after a serious trauma.
Furthermore Steve Wilson indicates that Hogan ducked to avoid the impact of the steering wheel.  Is Steve Wilson a liar ?

Only according to you. You say he didn't have time to throw himself out of the way. Steve Wilson is in agreement with those who say Hogan ducked/threw himself out of the way. Or will you now say that you never said that, Okay.

Your statement:

'in the nano-second after recognition of the impending collision, Hogan has the thought process and time to throw himself across his wife's lap ?'

what did you mean by the above?

Before you take to name calling or supporting name calling, make sure you have all the substantive facts at your disposal.[/color]

I never called you any name Patrick, I just said I found you agressive and ill mannered

To your point that Hogan had 16 months to recover from his injuries and Tiger not you are correct but to suggest that he was fully recovered is at best a sign of ignorance as to how easy or not it is to recover from major injuries.

Evidently your reading skills are lacking.
I never stated that Hogan fully recovered from his injuries.
Could you cite where I stated that ?
Please, try to be accurate when you quote or restate what I've written.
That's good manners, isn't it ?

Your quote to me

He didn't, he played 16 months later, which is more than ample time for every bone, cut and bruise to heal.  While the internal organ injuries take longer, six to nine months is more than adequate.

is a copy/paste accurate enough?

You, Kelly and others are creating your own spin, ignoring my written words and inserting an interpretation that suits your purpose.[/color]

I suffered a serious accident over 16 years ago, though not as big as being hit head on by a bus. Despite them being fully recovered from a medical view point, I still feel the odd twinge now and again. I am sure there are others on this site with similar experiences.

How does that conflict with anything I've mentioned about Hogan's injuries ?  Haven't you been carefully reading my posts ?[/color]

He didn't, he played 16 months later, which is more than ample time for every bone, cut and bruise to heal.  While the internal organ injuries take longer, six to nine months is more than adequate.

That implies to me you say he was fully recovered.


Patrick,

I will polish my reading skills if you improve your manners 


I think you need to polish both   [/color]

Maybe you need to find yours first before you can polish.   

You also asked me to provide evidence of Hogans reduced playing and practice habits.

http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/timeline.html

But in 1949, he suffered terrible injuries in a car crash, and was never again able to play a full schedule due to circulatory problems in his legs.
In fact, from 1950 on, Hogan never played more than 7 PGA Tour events in a year. Yet, he won 13 more times, including 6 majors. Until Tiger Woods did it in 2000, Hogan was the only man to win three professional majors in one season. That was in 1953, when Hogan won the Masters, U.S. Open and British Open. He was unable to play the PGA because it started too close to the finish of the British Open. From 1946 to 1953, Hogan won 9 of the 16 majors he played.
Or is it all a lie???

Actually 9 majors in 16 starts and 6 from 10 after the accident, not bad, maybe Tigers trying secretly to beat another record but didn’t fancy the bus part.

Oh one more thing Patrick, how do you do the colour type thing?

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