Biggest Medical Achievement -- 1950 or 2008 U. S. Open

[Adam_Messix]

I think it may have been Rich Lerner on the Golf Channel who just made an interesting statement.  I believe he said that given Tiger's condition that this year's U. S. Open win may have been the greatest achievement in the history of sports.  When he first said it, my thoughts were, yeah he might be right.  However, I've had a half hour and I keep coming back to Hogan's win at Merion in 1950 and that it may have been as big or a bigger achievement given the double round on Saturday followed up by a Sunday playoff.  What does the group think?  In my mind, both are downright incredible. 

[Garland Bayley]

Hogan beats him hands down.

[Tom Huckaby]

I'd need to know just how bad off Hogan was during the 1950 US Open.  We have great detail about Tiger - do we have that kind of detail about Hogan?

All I know I got from "Follow the Sun" and legends....

I'm leaning toward sticking with Hogan and making Tiger #2.  But I need more data.

Heck Pat Mucci probably walked the course that week with his college buddy - Hogan's grandfather - so where is Pat when we need him?

TH

[Adam_Messix]

Huck--

We've found out many years later that Hogan's legs were heavily wrapped during tournament play after the accident and that he had to soak them every evening.  We may or may not ever find out about anything Tiger may have done because of the knee injury.  We know that Hogan's knees locked up during his tee shot on 12 in the final round and that he needed someone to hold him upright and that he thought about quitting.  Tiger looked like he was in a great deal of pain on several occasions during the final round.  Like I said earlier, both achievements are downright amazing.

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:

Thanks.  I think that's enough for me.  Recovering from a near-death car crash and then playing and winning trumps Tiger's feat, at least for me.  But yes, both were freakishly amazing.  Man has great powers when will meets talent.

TH

[Phil Benedict]

There is no comparison.  After the accident Hogan wasn't expected to walk, never mind play golf or become a champion again. 

Good lord, the next thing is that someone will say Tiger is greater than Ghandi and Nelson Mandella.  Oh yeah, someone did say that, didn't they?

[George Pazin]

Hard to imagine Rich Lerner would exaggerate something....

Let's see, getting hit by a bus versus hurting your knee while running or playing golf. Hmmmmmmm. That's a tough one, let me think about it.

[Garland Bayley]

Hogan's life was saved by removing the large blood vessels that return blood from the legs. This was done to prevent the large clots that had been created from breaking loose and killing him. He was left with having the blood be forced back through the tinniest of vessels to return to the heart. Therefore, the wrappings to keep the blood from pooling in his legs and feet. He was in constant pain, not just when he swung.

[Kalen Braley]

If the above descriptions of Hogan are accurate, sure sounds like Hogan in a walk in this contest.

Can't even begin to imagine the constant pain Hogan was in to even attempt something like that.

[Garland Bayley]

Hogan also suffered damage to his vision so he was putting with one good eye...

...and he didn't have a cheater line to line him up, either! 

If Tiger lost an eye, he'd have Stevie line up the cheater line for him and just hit the putt...

Hogan was very private, so people thought he had developed old man putting yips due to the amount of time he stood over short putts, and he wasn't letting them in on his problem. In reality he was simply spending the time trying to get his eyes focussed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'd need to know just how bad off Hogan was during the 1950 US Open.  We have great detail about Tiger - do we have that kind of detail about Hogan?

All I know I got from "Follow the Sun" and legends....

I'm leaning toward sticking with Hogan and making Tiger #2.  But I need more data.

So you're selecting the golfer about whom you know almost nothing versus a golfer where you know just about everything ?[/color]

Heck Pat Mucci probably walked the course that week with his college buddy - Hogan's grandfather - so where is Pat when we need him?

You rang ?

The level of scrutiny on Tiger's injury was without precedent.
Tiger's play, efforts and discomfort were visible to all, on almost every shot.

As to Hogan's play, efforts and discomfort, other than his score, they remain mostly unknown.

So, I don't know how you compare the two, one a golfer where virtually everything is known versus another, a golfer where virtually nothing is known.

Until in depth info regarding Hogan is made available, you have to go with the known commodity, Tiger Woods.[/color]

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Not even close- Hogan wins. Rich Lerner is the designated TW cheerleader on TGC.

[Tom Huckaby]

Hi Pat!

I was hoping that would lure you out.

And that was a darn good answer.

But some have reported in this thread the maladies and afflictions that Hogan overcame.. does this sway you at all?

If what they say is true, it sounds to me like Hogan overcame more; which of course takes nothing away from what Tiger did, which of course is absolutely incredible.

In the end we don't really have the data though, as you say.

TH

[David Stamm]

Hogan, no question.


 Hogan suffered a broken collarbone, a smashed rib, a double fracture of the pelvis and a broken ankle.

After his bones were set in an El Paso hospital, it looked as if Hogan would be OK. But then he developed a blood clot, and doctors performed an abdominal operation and tied off the principal veins in his legs, preventing the clot from reaching his heart.

[Tim_Cronin]

Hogan, 9 and 8.
Didn't the ambulance folks at the crash site think he was dead when they first saw him?
And I am in awe of Woods' performance from every angle.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Hi Pat!

I was hoping that would lure you out.

And that was a darn good answer.

But some have reported in this thread the maladies and afflictions that Hogan overcame.. does this sway you at all?

Not at all, because it's all unreliable hearsay.

With Tiger, you know the diagnosis and prognosis, in detail.

With Hogan you don't have the medical records detailing the injury/ies and impact on his game.

Everyone saw the impact on Tiger's game when he grimaced and doubled over in pain after nearly every tee shot and approach.

Let's not forget that Tiger is one of the most superbly conditioned athletes of his time.   Hogan was hardly the physical specimen that Tiger is.[/color]

If what they say is true, it sounds to me like Hogan overcame more; which of course takes nothing away from what Tiger did, which of course is absolutely incredible.

I'm surprised at you.
Who's "they" ?
And, what do they "say"
Do they have the medical evidence to support their claim ?
If not, what they say is meaningless.[/color]

In the end we don't really have the data though, as you say.


And, lacking the data, "they" can't support their claim.[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat:

"They" are the participants in this thread, posting in this thread, up above.  If what they say is true, it makes me lean toward favoring Hogan in this.  That's all I said.

I too don't know if it's true.  But if it is, I lean toward Hogan.

I believe I've said this three times now... here's hoping this time it sinks in.

SO... you don't believe the claims stated in this thread?

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

"They" are the participants in this thread, posting in this thread, up above.

Did they have access to Hogan's medical records ?[/color]

If what they say is true, it makes me lean toward favoring Hogan in this.  That's all I said.

I too don't know if it's true.  But if it is, I lean toward Hogan.

I believe I've said this three times now... here's hoping this time it sinks in.


It sunk in the first time.
You prefer speculation to fact 
We have the facts on Tiger's knee.
We have speculation on Hogan's medical condition and the impact it had on his ability to play.
Until Hogan's medical condition and its impact on his ability to play is clearly documented, it's a worthless exercise.

There's a difference between playing with pain and playing when play further damages your body.

I can play with a good deal of pain.
I'm not so sure I could play if playing continued to make my body deteriorate, causing me additional pain and further impeding my playing ability.[/color]

SO... you don't believe the claims stated in this thread?

No, I don't.
I don't think that anyone on this thread has produced any substantive medical evidence detailing Hogan's injury and its impact on his play.
Until that happens, it's all just hearsay.[/color]

[Gerry B]

Hogan played 36 holes on saturday - that is how they played the US open in those days - 4 rounds over 3 days. he was lucky to be alive after the accident.

I have not played Torrey Pines -therefore cannot comment on the elevation changes - but Merion would have been a tough walk given the terrain and 36 holes in a day - was curious as to what the temperature / humidity levels were on that saturday in 1950.

Interesting fact - Hogan's 1 iron and  shoes went "missing" between the 4th round and the playoff. Were they ever found?

As i played there this past  Sunday afternoon - my round was enhanced given the circumstances with Tiger this weekend.

Hogan wins in a walk.

Curious - when did the US Open change to a 4 day tourney - my guess is after Venturi almost died at Congressional 1n 1964 - any insight?

[Garland Bayley]

Pat,

You don't have the medical records of Tiger. They are far more closely guarded than Ben's were. And to imply that Ben was far less a physical specimen than Ben just shows how out of touch with reallity you are. Ben was a tough as they come, mentally and physically. If it weren't for Ben's accident, Tiger would be a lot farther from the record for majors than he is now, because he would be chasing Ben, not Jack. That is unless Jack had chased Ben and set the bar even higher.

Time to go back to chasing the nurse, and stop writing about what you don't know.
 

[Jeff Evagues]

Curious - when did the US Open change to a 4 day tourney - my guess is after Venturi almost died at Congressional 1n 1964 - any insight?
[/quote]


That is exactly correct. The open went to 4 days in 1965.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Hogan's injuries were mostly bone injuries.
Pelvis, collar bone, ankle and rib.

Bones knit and heal rather well, sometimes becoming stronger.
I'm not diminishing the severity of Hogan's injuries, only pointing out that they were bone, not joint injuries with the possible exception of his ankle.

Hogan's injury occured almost a year and a half prior to the Open at Merion.
Tiger's most recent surgery, amongst previous surgeries, was less than two months before the start of this year's Open.  In addition, he sustained a double stress fracture of his Tibia while rehabing his knee.

I've broken my leg, ankle, wrist, every toe and several fingers, all from sports and Karate, and all after the age of 30.  They all healed quite well with a little time, although my wrist will never return to normal function.  
I'd rather break bones than have a torn ACL.
Recovery from broken bones is duck soup.
Full recovery from a torn ACL may never happen.

Venturi's 1964 episode was also amazing.
He too was told to quit, but, he didn't and the Open Trophy has his name etchted in to it for all time.

I believe that Tiger's conditioning is the equal of any golfer whose ever played, including Stranahan.

[Martin Del Vecchio]

Interesting fact - Hogan's 1 iron and  shoes went "missing" between the 4th round and the playoff. Were they ever found?

The 1-iron was found, and was returned to him before he died.  Apparently someone found it in a bin of used clubs at a store, and noticed an odd pattern; the sweet spot was smoothed out from the repeated hits, and the rest was untouched.  The guy said something like, "it sure looked like whoever owned it knew what the hell he was doing with it."

I can't speak for the shoes.

[Bob_Huntley]

Let me tell you, a massive pulmonary embolus (blood clot post surgery on an injured leg) is about a hundred times more painful and dangerous than an ACL. I have had both and know a little about it.

Hogan without doubt.


Bob

[Gerry B]

another question:

when did the usga change the playoff format from 36 holes to 18 holes? in 1928 johnny farrell beat bobby jones in a 36 hole playoff at olympia fields