[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Crestmont is a fine layout and a superb Ross contribution to the NJ golf scene.

However ...

I am not a fan of the par-5's there -- the 1st is rather ordinary although the green is quite testing. The 9th and 18th both play up the hill to the clubhouse. The 14th -- I believe that's the number is likely the best of the lot.

On the par-3 side the 11th can play to the extreme with its severe back-to-front pitch.

I really like the course but if you held Crestmont against the other top Jersey courses it would not make a top 20 list because the sheer depth of courses in the Garden State is that much better. Still, I like the layout because the property is so unique and beautiful.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Kind of unique when you mentioned Crestmont but the town of West Orange has a number of interesting and well designed separate courses -- likely among the best certainly in NJ and even the metro area with the likes of the following:

* Essex County CC

* Montclair GC (particularly nines #2 + #4)

* Rock Spring (which hosts the Jersey Open next year)

* Crestmont

* Although not what it used to be one needs to mentioned Francis Bryne and its former past glory days as Essex County West.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I believe Essex Fells CC also lies within West Orange.

And, don't forget the NLE which is now Essex Green Shopping Center.

That's eight 18 hole layouts in one small town.

And the little 9 holer that NLE off of Pleasant Valley Way.

[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to know from those who don't live in the immediate area when they did make a visit if there were any real surprises given what they knew about the area's golf courses and what they actually gleaned from a personal experience.

Did all of the top tier layouts match / exceed what you thought about previously?

Were there any clear choices that were a good bit less and why do you think that was the case?

[Matt_Ward]

For those who may not have seen it - good review by B Klein in the 8/23 issue of golfweek / re: Pound Ridge -- the new Dye layout in the greater NYC area.

Love the last line about "a dynamite entrance" into the greater NYC marketplace.

Anyone playing there will surely notice all the granite rock that's a part of one's time there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

Any chance you'll revise this list and promote Ridgewood (NJ)

Do you still feel that Trump (NJ) is a better golf course ?

[Mike Policano]

Pat,

Thanks for carry the RCC mantel so well, especially given your recent surgery.  How do you think RCC compares to Montclair 2 and 4 and also to Westchester West?

Cheers

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I've always felt that Ridgewood was under rated and unappreciated.

The greens are fairly small, well protected and well contoured/sloped.

# 3 West may be the only flatish green on the entire 27 holes and that green has some decent slope to it.

What's interesting is the following.

Look how good the 9 holes are that weren't part of the Barclay's routing are.

# 8 & 9 East, # 1, 7, 8 & 9 Center and # 1, 2 & 3 West.
That's a great nine holer.

Ridgewood has lived in the shadow of other AWT courses in the area due to THEIR exposure.  Now that Ridgewood received equal EXPOSURE I think many are reassessing their views and judgements.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
Yesterday on XM146, Peter Oosterhuis said it (Ridgewood) was now in his personal top 10 in the world.  When asked if it could hold a major, he repied, "Certainly."

In another thread, treehouse member Sébastien Dhaussy found this:
According to this article from John Hawkins in GolfWorld online, a pro choose to  play an other course during the Barclays week :

"Although the Barclays is scheduled to return to its old site in what amounts to a 2011 cameo, it won't be a year too late -- Ridgewood was as big a hit as you'll find among 144 guys with $10 million on the line. "Best golf course we've played all year," said Tom Pernice Jr., not the easiest man to please. The old-school look and imaginative medley of holes make this A.W. Tillinghast design a keeper, which doesn't explain why the tour will follow its commercial nose and flee to snazzy-but-raw Liberty National for the 2009 gathering.

"If this one's a 10, that one's a 2," said a veteran who played next year's site last week. " 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

What many forget is that Ridgewood, like most clubs, is a member club, so we shouldn't confine our thoughts and comments in the context of play by PGA Tour Pros.

As a member course Ridgewood is spectacular.
Three good nines, each with their own personality.

I think it's a great member's golf course.

My one complaint is the narrowing of some fairways, especially #  7 West.

What many missed is some of the wonderful and I mean wonderful contouring that exists on the greens, like # 2 West and # 7 Center.

In addition, almost all the greens contain a good measure of slope and/or contour, so, there's never a dull moment on the greens or approaching them.

And, the greens are very well protected vis a vis bunkering.

There are uphill holes, downhill holes, doglegs left, doglegs right, short holes and long holes.  It's also got a great practice facility and a world class practice putting green that will drive you crazy.

It's a real GOLFER's Golf Club.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick - that's the exact vibe I got from the members with whom I spoke.  Ridgewood didn't seem like the debutante ball type of place - rather I found to be a place where golfers ran things.  And those members were beaming with pride!

[Mike Policano]

 Pat and Dan

I spoke with about 40 players and caddies at the Barclays. They were all saying what Pernice said. VJ hopped in my cart and asked about the nine holes they were not playing. He said he and others were wondering why they were not included. He asked about the 9 center green. I told him how Hanse raised the right from a foot and half. I then drove him up to the green and we discussed greens speeds now and then and the implications on the greens.

Aaron Baddely echoed everyone elses comments. I asked him why the pros liked it. He said it wasn't tricked up, you had to use strategy each hole to make sure you hit to the right spot on the fairway to give you the best chance of hitting the green in the right place. He liked that shots had to be shaped to hit the fairways in the right place. He also liked that while the rough was tough, recovery shots were there to be made. He had a big smile and said it was fun golf.

Interesting stuff to me who thought the lack of fairway bunkers was a missing element.

[Dan Herrmann]

Mike - GREAT information.

Shoot - I didn't know Gil did work there.

[AndrewB]

I spoke with about 40 players and caddies at the Barclays.

Mike,

Did any of the players, amongst all their praise, say anything about any trees they thought should be removed?

I remember hearing comments from some players in the 2001 Senior PGA Championship that the trees left and short of the greens on 5W (14) and 6W (15) needed to go.  Both of those (and many other) trees have been removed since, but I'm curious if the players were bothered by the trees left on the 3C (6) and 7E (11) tee shots, or right on the 5E (9) approach, or right on the 9W (18) tee shot.  I'm not claiming those should be removed, but I do hear complaints about those trees more than any others on the course now.

Thanks.

[Bill Brightly]

Andrew,

Funny that you mentioned the trees on 6 (3C) because I was amazed at how many hit it over the trees on the left! Cabrera, Perry, etc all hit it right over them! These trees must be 230-250 yards from the tee and 80 feet tall. I was stunned.

I think trees that far from the tee are fine and present a fair challenge. Many pros tried to avoid the left trees with 3 wood, only to hang their shot right and have tree trouble on that side. Trees that are in play less than 100 yards off the tee, IMO, are the ones that have to go.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I am a big fan of Ridgewood but I don't rate composite courses. The argument can be made that either the East or Center Nines could be used with the West. Either way it's a close call -- have to say this in defense of Trump National's original 18 -- it's a very good design and a close call with the likes of Ridgewood. In this case, I'd still opt for The Donald's contribution although the difference between them is no more apart than the space Affrmed had over Alydar in the Triple Crown races from years ago.

Mike P:

For what's worth -- the unique design of Montclair's #2 and #4 nines comes from the unique duo of what Ross and Banks did there respectively. The greens are indeed among the toughest in all of Jersey -- candidly, for a course just over 6,500 yards fro the tips, Montclair rarely suffers any fools.

In regards to Westchester West -- the layout that originally hosted the Classic for so many years is a one of kind gem. Better land than Ridgewood -- better combination of holes and the roster of champs over the years is among the very best the PGA Tour can produce.

Andrew:

The tree issue is still an issue -- a number of them can still be cut. You are spot on with that comment.

Gents:

What people don't realize is the serious depth of courses in the metro NYC area. The top tier has always received the rightful fanfare -- now othes can bask in the light. Next year Liberty National will present a totally different presentation. Be interesting to hear the comment from those participating in '09.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt,
I was speaking to a caddy as we walked up #3...  I asked him what he thought of the course and he replied, "Fantastic.  And bloody better than Westchester"

[Patrick_Mucci]

I am a big fan of Ridgewood but I don't rate composite courses.

The argument can be made that either the East or Center Nines could be used with the West. Either way it's a close call


East and West always seemed like the strongest combination to me, so let's use that course for comparison/rankings sake.

-- have to say this in defense of Trump National's original 18 -- it's a very good design and a close call with the likes of Ridgewood.

I've played there and don't think it's even close,
on a hole vs hole or a global comparison.
But, that's what makes horse races and bettors.

In this case, I'd still opt for The Donald's contribution although the difference between them is no more apart than the space Affrmed had over Alydar in the Triple Crown races from years ago.

The "Donald" inherited the routing.

If I had a choice of playing the two, it would be 9 or 10 out of 10 for Ridgewood.

What would your preference be ?

[Mike Policano]

Andrew, I am out of town but I believe the Master Plan calls for the three birches and the pin oak just at the front left of 7 east tee to come down. No further tree work is called for in the holes you mentioned. There are however numerous other trees that are to be taken down per the Master Plan. Every year a few more come down.

A couple of guys clipped the pin oak on 7 east just 75 -100 yards off the tee. I would like to see some trimming on the left side of 8 west or 17.

As for 9 west or 18, both Sergio and Vijay drew the ball high over the trees.  Us lesser players will still have to move the ball left to right.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan H:

With all due respect to the caddie you spoke to -- he's "bloody" daft if he remotely believes Westchester is somehow miles behind Ridgewood. I'd be happy to compare / contrast in any form you wish. Keep in mind Ridgewood played over 7,300 yards and the players still shot nearly double digit under-par and much of this has to be attributed to the fact that they players were not familiar with the course.

Westchester is well known by the players and to a man the respect the course got over the years is played out by the who's who of top tier names that won there -- the major exception being Tiger. One other thing -- compare the land, routing and sheer diversity of holes at Westchester. You want a short par-4 -- try the 7th and 10th (when routed for the former Classic event) -- you want long par-4's -- how bout the 8th, 11th, 12th and 15th -- FYI -- the 11th and 12th routinely were among the toughest par-4's played on the PGA Tour.

On the par-5 front the finale has always produced superb drama -- how bout Padraig's winning putt a few years back -- how bout Gilder's closing double eagle from the early 80's.

I love Ridgewood but don't sell short Westchester's West Course.

Pat:

I'm not sold on the East / West combo at Ridgewood. The Center does very well - especially when the 4th hole plays as par-4 as it did during the Barclays. Ditto the 2nd on Center playing as a par-4 -- the toughest hole for the entire Barclays.

Opinions are fine -- you see Ridgewood ahead of Trump National's original 18. I see it very close but I give TN the edge. Ridgewood still has tree issues that need to be trimmed or cut back entirely. A bit more air would help the place immensely and given what Mike P has added I am looking forward to when even more trees are removed or trimmed back significantly.

In terms of total rounds -- if I had ten rounds I'd opt for TN on a 6-4 margin.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not sold on the East / West combo at Ridgewood.

The Center does very well - especially when the 4th hole plays as par-4 as it did during the Barclays. Ditto the 2nd on Center playing as a par-4 -- the toughest hole for the entire Barclays.

Matt, in a post above you indicated that you don't rate/rank/evaluate composite courses.  Surely, you don't rate/rank/evaluate holes that don't exist.... save for 4 days in their lifetime.

Opinions are fine -- you see Ridgewood ahead of Trump National's original 18.

I see it very close but I give TN the edge.

Ridgewood still has tree issues that need to be trimmed or cut back entirely. A bit more air would help the place immensely and given what Mike P has added I am looking forward to when even more trees are removed or trimmed back significantly.

I think Ridgewood is moving in the right direction.
Tree removal is always a sensitive issue.
However, TN has some tree issues as well.
Trees were planted so close to the bunkers that the roots will soon be in the bunkers AND in the fall the bunkers will serve as a recepticle for the leaves.  Just examine the rightside fairway bunker on # 18 and you'll see what I mean.

In terms of total rounds -- if I had ten rounds I'd opt for TN on a 6-4 margin.


You don't find a sameness in the par 3's at TN ?

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Fair point on the par-3 side but overall the demands off the tee and for shots into the green Trump National's original 18 is quite solid.

Even if the 2nd and 4th holes for the Center were par-5's as they normally play that respective nine is quite good. I don't see the East being that good until you reach the 3rd tee -- the first two are merely window dressing. The ending hole for the side is also rather ordinary. Either way -- it's a close call to see which one should be paired with the West.

When talking about the tree issue -- Ridgewood hass more to do on that front than TN. Too many of the trees at the Paramus layout overhang into the fairway areas. They've done a good job but more can and should be done.

Like I said -- it's close between the two but I'd give TN the slightest of edges.

[Jed Peters]

Matt:

Any idea when you're going to play TN New?

It's opening this weekend, with DT himself hitting the first ball tomorrow morning.

I'm curious to see what you think.

I was VERY impressed.....from what I saw. I didn't play it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

The success of the Barclay's should serve as a catalyst with respect to accelerating the tree removal/pruning project.

Ridgewood just came up on some radar screens and as such, the efforts to improve the golf course will probably continue, hopefully, at an accelerated pace.

Ridgewood is on the ascent.

# 2 on East is more challenging than most think, especially at its increased length.
# 9 could be enhanced, but, for amateurs it presents more than an adequate challenge.

[Matt_Ward]

Jed:

I hope to play the new TN layout shortly. I am in the mountain time zone now for roughly two weeks and will not be back in the Garden State until sometime in early September.

Jed, can you provide any details even from what you saw. Is the new 18 going to be really different than the first? I've heard a number of good reports and frankly it has peaked my curiosity to see what goes.

People often bash The Donald but TN deserves plenty of credit for being a really fine layout in such a short time. What will be interesting to see is when the US Junior Boys and Girls event is played there - believe it's in '09. That will tell plenty on what other events The Donald has in mind. I believe that after Liberty National in '09 The Barclays will go there in '10. Nothing concrete mind you -- just a hunch on my part.

Pat:

You're preaching to the choir regarding the very favorable impressions that Ridgewood generated. The club deserves plenty of credit and ditto the PGA Tour staff for getting the course to present a very fair and stern challenge at the same time.

The tree issue is still one that needs attention. Whether that will prompt more action on that front is for me a wait and see situation. I hope more will be done because the clogged areas can be a downer that takes away from what the Tillinghast layout provides.

When you say Ridgewood is on the ascent -- keep in mind that other metro NYC area courses are equally making moves. You see TN as being less so than Ridgewood -- fair enough. I see the work being done there as quite impressive and worthy of a big time event to demonstrate what it can provide.

In regards to the two holes on the East -- I don't see #2 as being really that special of a hole. Other par-3's at Ridgewood offer a good bit more. The 9th is also a mediocre closer for that side.

Kudos to Ridgewood for a great event -- be curious to find out if the Tour / Barclays would entertain coming back in some sort of rotation.

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