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wsmorrison

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #150 on: July 30, 2008, 04:06:24 PM »
Matt,

Pine Valley GC is a member of the Golf Association of Philadelphia.  No agreements necessary. 

The Philadelphia Open and Amateur have been played there.  Has there ever been a NJ Open or Amateur at PVGC?

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #151 on: July 30, 2008, 04:15:42 PM »
Wayne:

No NJSGA Am or Open have ever been contested at PV.

If memory serves, this year's Am at Little Mill was the first that ventured to that
section of the Garden State although I believe NJSGA events have been played in the AC area.

I believe PV is also a member of the NJSGA.

wsmorrison

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #152 on: July 30, 2008, 04:26:00 PM »
Matt,

You're right, PVGC is in the NJSGA, but they didn't want anyone to know about it.  It is their dark secret and shame.  Nice going outing them  ;)

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #153 on: July 30, 2008, 04:43:05 PM »
Wayne:

It's not so top secret -- you can access via the NJSGA Website for all members of the association.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #154 on: July 30, 2008, 05:14:44 PM »
Perhaps the Fishers Island question can be adjudicated (spell?) this way: is it a member of the Long Island Golf Association?  I don't know, but the LIGA website will have the answer.

I don't want to argue the point - it's too much fun watching you guys slug it out.

I've played a few more of the Suffolk courses than Westchester County.  It seems to me that a good deal of any person's overall preference will be a function of whether they prefer pure parkland courses a la Westchester County or the "semi-links" that make up the majority of the Suffolk County team.  Also, the LI courses are such wonderful "golf places" - which could enhance a person's rating above & beyond the architecture on the ground (e.g. Maidstone). 

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #155 on: July 30, 2008, 06:42:51 PM »
Chip,

very good observation,  I wonder what folks would prefer among quartets  such as:


Inwood, Noyac, Rockaway, and Southampton  (Long Island near water)  or


Century, Siwanoy, Old Oaks, and Wykagyl     (Westchester Parkland)




...calling  Sean Berry



« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:35:48 PM by mark chalfant »

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #156 on: July 30, 2008, 07:21:40 PM »
Chip:

The issue of whether a club belongs to one golf association or another is really a secondary issue. Think of the reality -- you don't access Fisher's Island from the rest of New York unless it's by private craft -- boat or plane.

All regular access comes thru New London, CT -- for the short ferry trip across. If you gauged the total miles between Fisher's Island and the mainland of New York and CT -- the Constitution State wins.

One other thing -- Fisher's Island is NOT a member of the LIGA -- but is a member of the CT State Golf Association.

In my mind -- Matt hits a home run on this topic -- Sweeney gets a called strike three.

Mark C:

Any reason why you hooked up specific courses to face-off against one another?

Siwanoy has the edge on Inwood -- better terrain and more consistent shot values across the board.

Noyac is a lower tier Suffolk County golf option -- even the most ardent supporters of the east end would likely relegate the layout to a lesser overall position. Old Oaks is not everyone's cup of tea but like Siwanoy would win out because of its more consistent presentation. In the last instance -- Southampton is a fine layout but the work C&C did with Wykagyl has clearly raised the profile of a club that was in real need of major attention. The work has certainly paid off.


mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #157 on: July 30, 2008, 07:45:05 PM »
Hold  on  PAaaaaaaaaaaaaaardner

Matt :you have Yale  on your hit parade.   YALE GC is so far EAST  of  FAIRFIELD County that it  has membership   in the RHODE  ISLAND links trust.


I know the GARDEN  STATE has  top notch schools but was  your geography teacher   Springsteen ,  Sharpe James, or van  Halen

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #158 on: July 30, 2008, 07:57:32 PM »
Mark:

I counted courses that within 75 miles of Times Square (with all of LI being the single exception to that mileage limit) -- believe Yale makes the cut in that regard.

If you think it should be out -- fair enough -- drop Yale out and I can replace it quite easily given the sheer depth of courses in the metro NYC area.

My geography is quite good Mark -- go back and see the Fisher's Island situation and let me know who's got the better case on that one.

You still have not explained how you paired certain Westchester courses versus those on the Island.


Mike Sweeney

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #159 on: July 30, 2008, 08:22:50 PM »
Mark:

I counted courses that within 75 miles of Times Square (with all of LI being the single exception to that mileage limit) -- believe Yale makes the cut in that regard.


Matt,

Thanks for clearing up the Fishers Island situation. Since Fishers is obviously past your 75 mile limit, it falls into the Metro Ward 50 Long Island exception (Maidstone, Shinnecock, Atlantic .... all over 75 miles). Since Fishers is on your original list, according to your parameters, Fishers Island falls under the Metro Ward 50 Long Island exemption and is a part of Suffolk County, Long Island.

Thanks Matt!

By the way, I would give the nod to Atlantic over Hudson National, and you took me to task for admitting that I like Hudson. When will the tap dancing stop and you put up your 11-15 Westchester list? Mine were:

Montauk
Huntington CC
Southampton
Easthampton
Laurel Links (recently praised by Matt Ward!)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 08:41:03 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #160 on: July 31, 2008, 10:02:50 AM »
Quote
You can argue all you want but let's face some reality here -- Bayonne is amply wide -- 50 yards across in many spots. Pat if someone can't find a 50-yard fairway then the player needs to revisit the practice area and get their swing in order.

Matt,

50 yards effectively becomes 25 yards with the winds that sweep Bayonne.


If the player has that much "insecurity" with that amount of width I can only imagine the kind of "insecurity" that same player would have if they played Dunluce at Royal Portrush or Crystal Downs or any other course where the hay-like rough is right on top of the narrow playing areas.

You keep citing Dunluce as if it's the benchmark, it isn't.

We're talking about Bayonne.


Pat, I can name plenty of top tier layouts that have narrower fairways than Bayonne -- and have as penal if not more penal rough that encroaches just outside the fairway areas.

Name just five (5) in the U.S.


Do these courses get demerits for the presentation they provide players? A number of these courses are celebrated here on GCA.

Until you cite them, no one can draw a comparison because they remain phantom courses.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 10:29:15 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #161 on: July 31, 2008, 10:32:38 AM »
Matt,

A critical factor that I forgot to mention is the blind nature of many of the shots, tee shots, 2nd shots and approaches.

When you add that element to the excessively penal rough and strong winds it creates a perfect storm that many golfers, including good golfers, can't weather....... enjoyably.

As I've stated, I really like what Eric accomplished and the golf course, but, thinning the thick fescue will improve both the play and the experience at Bayonne.

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #162 on: July 31, 2008, 01:03:02 PM »
Pat:

I can understand all that you said ... I still see Bayonne has being playable and when you have the proper caddie steering players along it can make for a worthwhile time on the course. My main point is that other courses throughout the golf world follow the pattern of Bayonne with extremely demanding fescue rough -- but the fairway widths at those place are much more narrower and they often also feature blind tee shots, 2nd shots, etc, etc.

Here are the five layout to start with ...

Bethpage Black *now kept narrower than in previous Open days. Rough can cause in spots lost balls and the related slow play.

Oakmont *day-to-day very demanding and narrower than Bayonne.

I mention Dunluce at Portrush previously and can also throw into the mixture County Down in certain specific instances.

Crystal Downs plays much narrower than Bayonne -- and the rough is no less, if not more vexing.

GC of Purchase -- very penal and overly narrow course. Don't see how members can enjoy playing there or anyone else for that matter.

Oakland Hills / South -- again more than just getting ready for the PGA Championship. Excessively narrow with rough that will limit recovery options.

Pat, you need to examine other courses that are given all-world status but play narrower than Bayonne -- much narrower in most spots, and have rough that is truly beyond what you encountered at Bergstol's Place. Consistency is needed here.







Mike S:

I included Fisher's Island originally since it's technically counted as part of Long Island. I can easily drop it off for the reasons I mentioned in the last few posts. 

Mike, you embraced Fisher's Island as part of your Suffolk County team of courses. I explained -- for what it was worth -- that Fisher's Island, while technically a part of Suffolk County but is really disconnected for the reasons I spelled out previously. If you seek to include it on your course listing I'd be happy to bump into the picture courses in Greenwich or Fairfield County that are literally on the doorstep of Westchester County.

My top 15 would include ... in no particular order

Winged Foot / West
Wigned Foot / East
Quaker Ridge
Fenway
Century
Old Oaks
Pound Ridge
Hudson National
Metropolis
Sleepy Hollow
Siwanoy
Westchester CC / West
Trump National
Wykagyl
Whippoorwill

Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #163 on: August 01, 2008, 10:46:45 PM »
Pat:

I can understand all that you said ... I still see Bayonne has being playable and when you have the proper caddie steering players along it can make for a worthwhile time on the course. My main point is that other courses throughout the golf world follow the pattern of Bayonne with extremely demanding fescue rough -- but the fairway widths at those place are much more narrower and they often also feature blind tee shots, 2nd shots, etc, etc.

Here are the five layout to start with ...

Bethpage Black *now kept narrower than in previous Open days. Rough can cause in spots lost balls and the related slow play.

The rough at BPB is benign compared to Bayonne.

You're not going to lose balls that are 3 feet off the fairway at BPB.

The comparison isn't valid


Oakmont *day-to-day very demanding and narrower than Bayonne.


The rough at Oakmont is benign when compared to Bayonne.

You're not going to lose balls that are 3 feet off the fairway at Oakmont.


I mention Dunluce at Portrush previously and can also throw into the mixture County Down in certain specific instances.

Confine your comparison to U.S. courses
[/color]

Crystal Downs plays much narrower than Bayonne -- and the rough is no less, if not more vexing.

I can't comment on Crystal Downs as I've never played it.

But, I'm well qualified to comment on Oakmont and BPB in comparison to Bayonne, and it's not even close.  The rough at Bayonne loses balls at a voracious rate.


GC of Purchase -- very penal and overly narrow course. Don't see how members can enjoy playing there or anyone else for that matter.

I can't comment because I've never played it


Oakland Hills / South -- again more than just getting ready for the PGA Championship. Excessively narrow with rough that will limit recovery options.

Never played it either, but, TV will show how benign the rough is in comparison to Bayonne.  I'll guarantee you that they aren't searching for 5 minutes for balls hit 3 feet off the fairway, and that lost balls 3 feet off the fairway aren't the norm.


Pat, you need to examine other courses that are given all-world status but play narrower than Bayonne -- much narrower in most spots, and have rough that is truly beyond what you encountered at Bergstol's Place. Consistency is needed here.

Matt, you're out of touch with reality.

The issue isn't width, it's width in conjunction with what lies beyond the fairway.

Lost balls are the norm at Bayonne, not the exception.

I'd venture to say that each foursome loses balls during the course of the round., and that can't be good.




mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #164 on: August 01, 2008, 11:13:08 PM »
Matt,

It is nice to see Metropolis on your list, I played it long ago and liked it a lot, but my memory is hazy.  I remember liking two consecutive holes on the back ( 11-12 ?).  Other than the famous and narrow 6th at Metropolis, what are some of your favorite holes there.  Any nice par threes ?
thanks 

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #165 on: August 02, 2008, 12:45:38 PM »
Pat:

We shall agree to disagree because you seem to believe Bayonne is soooooooooo windswept that 50+ yard fairways are not sufficient to handle play. I don't see it that way. The high fescue grass you mentioned is not in play unless you earn that distinction. One other thing -- there is a secondary rough dimension at Bayonne -- usually 6-8 yards wide just off a number of the fairways. All of the fescue areas are also not 1000% uniform in terms of density and penl nature.

Speaking of reality Pat, you need to examine the nature of real width versus those courses that are left extremely narrow in a day-to-day fashion and the appropriate reward / penalty aspect is completely turned on its head. Lost balls only happen at Bayonne when extremely poor played shots happen. People encountering such situations have a couple of alternatives ...

1). Get lessons

2),. Move up to a more appropriate tee yardage for them.

3). Seek other courses to play

Pat, I've played Bethpage Black over 200 times -- the course is NOW kept extremely narror -- far narrower than it should be -- the high grass there is more than able to capture balls at the voracious rate you misapplied to Bayonne.

You won't convince me -- and I know I won't convince you. Nuff said.




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #166 on: August 02, 2008, 02:48:19 PM »
Matt:

I don't think Crystal Downs plays narrower than Bayonne.  Crystal Downs has 30 yards of bent/poa fairway with about 15 yards of bluegrass rough on either side before you get to the native.

The native roughs can be brutal in the late spring and early summer, but after that they thin out and are pretty playable.  Many of the woody and weedy materials have been cleaned out in recent years, so with the exception of about four holes, you can usually find the ball even after a wild shot and play it.

It seemed to me that Bayonne had more consistently thick secondary rough, and that on many occasions you would have to stand on your head to get a stance to play out of it.

Mike_Cirba

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #167 on: August 03, 2008, 12:11:23 AM »
Matt,

I'm not sure how moving up a set of tees makes a crooked tee shot go any straighter?   Can you explain that one to me?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #168 on: August 03, 2008, 09:35:36 AM »


We shall agree to disagree because you seem to believe Bayonne is soooooooooo windswept that 50+ yard fairways are not sufficient to handle play.

That's correct, especially when you factor in the blind nature of many of the shots.


I don't see it that way. The high fescue grass you mentioned is not in play unless you earn that distinction. One other thing -- there is a secondary rough dimension at Bayonne -- usually 6-8 yards wide just off a number of the fairways.

Some of the fairways are angled, so the width you mention isn't practical width in terms of driving the golf ball.   When you combine the angled fairways with the wind and blindness that diminishes their practical width.


All of the fescue areas are also not 1000% uniform in terms of density and penal nature.

Matt, when two caddies and four golfers spend an inordinate amount of time searching for balls that were well spotted, that's excessive.

When the time is spent, hole after hole, that's excessive.

Not everyone who plays the golf course is a PGA Tour Pro.
When 5, 10, 15 and 20 hadicappers form a foursome it wouldn't be uncommon for a LEAST one ball to be in the rough on every hole.

When you play Bayonne, one your first drive, on average, how many fairways do you hit ?

I missed 2.
One due to a blind tee shot and not knowing that there wasn't fairway where I aimed.  The other into a good wind on # 18 where I let the ball get away to the the right.


Speaking of reality Pat, you need to examine the nature of real width versus those courses that are left extremely narrow in a day-to-day fashion and the appropriate reward / penalty aspect is completely turned on its head.

Matt, you're not getting it.
I understand narrow fairways, I've played a lot of courses with narrow fairways, but, that's not the issue.  The issue is the excessively penal nature of the rough on a wind swept course with a good number of blind shots.

You think the rough is perfect/acceptable and I believe it's too thick, too lush, mainly because it gets irrigated.


Lost balls only happen at Bayonne when extremely poor played shots happen.

That's not true.
You can hit a good shot that doesn't quite carry a mound/dune and never find  your ball.
You can hit a driver into the heel, into the wind and see it carried into the rough or over a dune into the rough and never find it again.

I like Bayonne, but, not to the point where I'm wearing blinders with respect to my ability, other golfers abilities or the excessively penal nature of the rough.


People encountering such situations have a couple of alternatives ...

1). Get lessons

So PGA Tour Players on windy courses with blind shots never hit it off the fairway ?   ?   ?
Should they take lessons ?


2),. Move up to a more appropriate tee yardage for them.

That's not going to solve shot pattern dispersal on a windy site with blind holes.


3). Seek other courses to play

If the rough isn't thinned, that will happen and a good golf course will be in trouble.  Golfers have to want to play a course reptetively for it to succeed.
If the experience ceases to be fun, the club/course will perish.


Pat, I've played Bethpage Black over 200 times -- the course is NOW kept extremely narror -- far narrower than it should be -- the high grass there is more than able to capture balls at the voracious rate you misapplied to Bayonne.

I'm aware of that, but, that's not the point.
At BPB you can FIND your ball within 5 minutes.
At BPB you can extract your ball without breaking your wrist.
That's not the case with Bayonne.
The rough is too thick and too lush.
With thinning out the course can ONLY get BETTER.
If the rough isn't thinned out, the future of the course, it's ability to attract members will be challenged


You won't convince me -- and I know I won't convince you. Nuff said.

That's why they have judges and juries.

I've made my case,  I'll let them decide.






Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #169 on: August 03, 2008, 03:56:31 PM »
Pat M:

I'll say this again -- if Bergstol had created a narrow corridor of 20-25 yards fairways with grass of the type you have indicated then your argument would have standing. That's not the case -- if people can't hit such targets then the real fly in the ointment isn't the course but likely the golfer themselves.

Pat, you keep on leaving out one element I've mentioned countless  times --it's not just narrow fairways but courses which COMBINE narrow fairways and then have extremely penal rough that borders the course. Bethpage Black is now much more narrower than it was meant to be played or how it was played prior to the US Open formula they now follow. Then the rough at BB is extremely dense and lush and likely lost balls are the norm there. It's even worse than Bayonne. You don't find the ball within five minutes as you so quickly opine. I can attest to that after having played there this year and sitting behind group after group conduct a full scale FBI search for their lost ammo -- the result being six hour golf.

Like I said before -- I've made my case. You won't convince me - or vice versa. I've played the course (Bayonne) more than once -- likely far more times than the people who are bellyaching on this lone aspect.


Mike C:

When people play certain tee markers many times they'll choose to play markers on the edge of their respective games. What this means is that people will NEED to marry both sufficient distance and optimum accuracy in order to attempt to successfully handle the demands presented.

If these same people were to move one box forward it's likely the self-imposed pressure to do both things as I mentioned above would be less so and the likely possibility that they would hit more fairways and be in better position to score would in all probability increase.

Mie, c'mon for God's sake -- the fairways at Bayonne for many of the holes are 50+ in terms of total width. How much wider should they go -- 100, 200, 1/4 mile?

Yes, the site does feature wind but Bergstol was smart to provide such width as to allow people ample maneuvering room to get around.
Mike, if someone truly can't hit a 50+ yard fairway then it's not the fault of the course -- even if hay-like rough exists. Mike, if you played Dunluce at Royal Portrush or even the exalted County Down you would, for your argument to have any sustained logic / credibility, need to denounce in likely even stronger terms those respective courses even more so because they don't have anywhere near the width of fairways Bayonne consistently provides.

Tom D:

If you think Crystal Downs plays wider than Bayonne then we see those two courses in very different light.

I found CD on the two separate occasions that I played it to be extremely snug in terms of fairway widths -- narrower than Bayonne without question on any number of holes.

Let's keep in mind that the 15-yard secondary is quite dense in its overall character and even playability. In my times at CD it was much more than a secondary function but to be fair I have not been back to CD for several years so I can understand your point until I have had an opportunity to return.

Tom, when you say Bayonne had more consistently thick secondary rough I don't see that as being the case. For the sake of argument I'll say it's a draw w CD at worst. When a golf course offers a player 50+ fairways I don't see much of a case that someone can piss and moan about its overall playability. Like I said Tom to Mike, check out a number of courses across th epond where the secondary dimension is no more than a strip of 10-12 feet before you hit the really hay-like stuff. No one argues that such courses are too penal or prepared incorrectly. If Bayonne is to get thrown under the bus because of that one dimension then it's long overdue for that same criticism to be applied to other courses too.

On your last point about "standing on one's head." I find that rather amusing because I'd have to know exactly what hole / situation you were outlining in such a comment. Is such a demanding stance possible? Sure it is. But I don't see situations like that which border immediately on top of any fairway there. If a shot is hit in such a wild fashion then the penalty for such a play will be handled accordingly and that mean dire results for the poor player who failed to execute. That's fair game in my mind.





Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #170 on: August 03, 2008, 04:20:53 PM »
I know Mike C has weighed in on where Bayonne stands for him when held against the other top metro courses he has played to date.

Be curious for any who have or might post that have played the course to point out where they would place the course as it is today among the top ones they have played in the greater NYC metro area.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #171 on: August 03, 2008, 09:09:11 PM »
Pat M:

I'll say this again -- if Bergstol had created a narrow corridor of 20-25 yards fairways with grass of the type you have indicated then your argument would have standing.

Matt,  With the wind and blindness, some fairways are effectively 20-25 yards in width.


That's not the case -- if people can't hit such targets then the real fly in the ointment isn't the course but likely the golfer themselves.

Matt,  With the wind and blindness, some fairways are effectively 20-25 yards in width.

But, if you think it's the golfer, let's arrange to play the course from any tees you choose and I'll bet you that you'll be in the rough four times or more on a windy day.  Even though we'll have two caddies, I'll bet that it takes a good deal of time to find balls in the rough.

The first hole is a classic.  I played with a 2, an 8 and a 12 and we had to look for more than 5 minutes to find two balls on the first hole alone.

The green is totally blind, with a large dune fronting it, and, it's totally surrounded by tall, deep, thick, well irrigated fescue.


Pat, you keep on leaving out one element I've mentioned countless  times --it's not just narrow fairways but courses which COMBINE narrow fairways and then have extremely penal rough that borders the course. Bethpage Black is now much more narrower than it was meant to be played or how it was played prior to the US Open formula they now follow. Then the rough at BB is extremely dense and lush and likely lost balls are the norm there. It's even worse than Bayonne. You don't find the ball within five minutes as you so quickly opine.

I can attest to that after having played there this year and sitting behind group after group conduct a full scale FBI search for their lost ammo -- the result being six hour golf.

Probably because they didn't have caddies.

The rough at BPB is benign when compared to Bayonne and BPB doesn't have anywhere near the wind that Bayonne has, and, BPB isn't BLIND on many of the holes.

There's no comparison


Like I said before -- I've made my case. You won't convince me - or vice versa. I've played the course (Bayonne) more than once -- likely far more times than the people who are bellyaching on this lone aspect.


It's a critical aspect.
As I stated, the course will get better as the fescue thins



Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #172 on: August 03, 2008, 10:36:17 PM »
Matt!

How could you leave Dyker Beach off this list!!!  ;D

In all seriousness, what about Bethpage Red.  What would it take to make your list?


Jeff F.
#nowhitebelt

Matt_Ward

Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #173 on: August 04, 2008, 10:41:53 AM »
Jeff:

I love Dyker Beach !

Just not T-H-A-T much.

In regards to Bethpage Red it's a fine layout but I don't see it as being among the top five public courses in the metro NYC area. There was a related thread that I posted on this topic a very short time ago. Likely you can pull it back up for those discussions.

The Red at Bethpage is very good but the private depth throughout the metro NYC area is soooooooooo good -- from top to botton -- that cracking my personal top 50 is not that easy -- nor should it be given the character of the courses in general.

Jeff, one other thing -- while there are number of unique holes on the Red I also believe it benefits immensely from having the Black as a big brother. What would really be interesting is to see if one could combine the front nine of the Blue Course with a smattering of nine key holes from the Red. That would make for an interesting combo indeed.

p.s. If you see the Red as being a part of your top 50 -- where would you place it?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My Metro Area Top 50 ...
« Reply #174 on: August 04, 2008, 02:34:19 PM »
Matt,

I wonder if you gave consideration to Crestmont. I had never played it before today's NJ Seniors. Really nice Ross course that seems extremely true to his design intent. Classic bunkering with fescue-hairy eyebrow look, lots of tilt to the greens. My two best irons hit where you are not supposed to land...and bounded of the side of the green.

Having just played all the Ross Pinehurst courses this spring I felt like I was back in nOrth Carolina. A few too many pines trees for my liking, but a very fun course.

Then again, I have NO idea what course I'd knock off the list...

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