[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I played Morris County GC last week.  I knew almost nothing about it before my outing.  It was a very pleasant surprise.  It wasn't long but the green sites were exceptional.  And the trees were absolutely spectacular.  It may qualify as a true hidden gem.  I doubt many know about it.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Did you say you have or have not played Friars Head? With the Southhampton courses listed I would have thought the North Fork would be represented as well.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Have not played Friar's Head to date.

Likely, given what others have opined it would be included somewhere on my listing -- possibly in the elite ten level.

Tommy W:

Glad you played Morris County -- gets little love because so many people likely have not heard about it. For those who are Seth Raynor fans it's a must play. The par-4 7th -- named "Big Ben" is one of personal best holes in the greater NYC metro area.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I thought someone should answer Sean's question who'd seen both courses, so I did.  Didn't say I knew all about them, but I don't think anyone who has played the two courses would dispute my general observations.  Bayonne is tight with big mounds, Chambers Bay much more open with a couple of exceptions.

[Dan Herrmann]

Where does Deepdale fit in?  I know nothing about it except for the celebrity of some of its members. 

(When I lived in the Metro area (1983), I usually ended up at Orange County, NY munis, so this is all very interesting to me)

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Deepdale is a VERY private layout located in Manhasset and is the handiwork of the late Dick Wilson. Well done layout with some of the more vexing greens you can find among the top tier layouts in the greater NYC metro area.

The course isn't long -- believe it's under 6,700 yards from the tips but it does place a tremendous amount of strategic thinking off the tee in order to have the proper angle into many of the well-protected putting surfaces.

[Matt_Ward]

A short time back Pat Mucci mentioned the sheer quality of so many metro NYC area courses that weren't championship type or those with plenty of yardage.

I am in the process in putting together a metro listing of courses that are less than 6,600 yards from the tips. Too often the desire to expand courses has meant a focus point only on those capable in hosting big time events.

Be curious to know those courses people like a lot but don't have that much total overall distance.

I'll post mine shortly.

[Matt_Ward]

For example, one clear example that would make my personal top ten for courses that are less than 6,600 yards from ther tips would be the #2 and #4 nines at Montclair GC in West Orange, NJ.

The #2 nine is the handiwork of Charles "steam shovel" Banks and the #4 nine is the design of Donald Ross. When you throw them together as is often the case when playing Montclair GC you encounter roughly 250 feet of elevation change and some of the most frightening greens in the entire region.

The overall lack of length matters not because the sheer details are indeed present. For those who may not be aware the club hosted the 1985 US Amateur won by Sam Randolph, to name just one noteworthy event that has been played there.

However, even if no events of stature were played there the pedigree of the design and what is there now is truly worth playing for those who venture to the area.

[Jeff_Lewis]

You mentioned Maidstone and I find the place to be vastly overrated in various national polls. Here is a layout that benefits in having big time neighbors nearby -- e.g. SH, NGLA, Sebonack, etc, etc. I don't see the opening and closing holes as compelling architecture of the highest order and although I am a huge fan of the 9th and 14th holes I see much of Maidstone as being a little short of consistent and compelling architecture throughout the round.

Of all your voluminous posts about how much you like hard golf courses, nothing crystalizes the differences in our points of view as much as this quote. Maidstone has some of the best green complexes in golf.  If it were 600 yards longer, would you like it better? I'd like it less, I imagine.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

With all due respect -- I don't rate Maidstone highly because it lacks length or difficulty -- if you believe that -- then look closely at my listing of layouts. There's plenty of courses far from the stereotypical belief that I only favor layouts with 75+ CR's and 145+ slopes.

Let's talk about Maidstone -- shall we?

The totality of the course is far less than the proponents would make it out to be. There are a number of pedestrian holes at the beginning and towards the very end of the round. Are superior holes present? Sure. There's a few of them -- but when we are talking about being in the nation's top 50 courses and the metro areas top 10 there's plenty of other candidates that often get far less attention.

You may not want to admit this but Maidstone gets a good bit of ink because of the locale it finds itself. Having big time neighbors like NGLA and Shinnecock have led many people to believe that this trio is an equal affair among all of them. In my mind, that's far from the case.

When you say Maidstone has some of the best green complexes IN GOLF (my emphasis added) then you'd better hustle over to Montclair GC and see what the combo of Banks / Ross have done there. I can name a number of other layouts that have superior green complexes but don't have a tony Hamptons location.

Before people start going all over the place with varous inane retorts let me say this again for the upteeeeenth time -- I'm not saying Maidstone is a fair or poor golf course. Not one bit. I just don't see it as being among the super elite courses that so many others do. I've given it plenty of credit for a range of things it does provide -- the steller 9th comes to mind quickly -- but if one were to look for compelling architecture through and through for the entire round you would find a picture that is truly only half full IMHO.

[Dan_Callahan]

Based on your comment about improved turf conditions, can I assume you've been to Yale in the last year or so? I ask because each time I've gone back over the last 5 years it seems to be significantly better. The tree clearing has transformed the place, and the turf conditions could almost be described as good. If this trend continues, would you rank it higher, or is the back 9 too weak for your taste?

In my opinion, the back has some of the most memorable holes on the course with 10, 11, 13, 14, 15 and 17 all being very good. 18 has its haters, and 16 is a blah par 5, but the outrageousness of 10 makes up for that all by itself. I haven't played nearly as many courses in the area as you, so I have no basis for knowing if Yale should be higher or not. But on my personal list of favorites, both national and international, I would put Yale near the top. Even the bad holes (possibly 3 until they move the green, possibly 18, although the split fairway makes it more interesting than it was) might be disliked but they are rarely boring.

[Ted Kramer]

Thanks for this list Matt.
Having played very few courses listed I'm not sure how much the next comment is "worth", but . . .

I'd rather play each of the 3rd 10 than each of the 2nd ten.

-Ted

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

I've been to Yale in the last year and while the turf has certainly improved -- frankly it had no place to go but up, there are a few holes at Yale which I see as being support players to the compelling architecture that is present -- that's part of my reasoning tied to the back nine.

Yale has a superb fan base within the confines of GCA and I can cetrainly understand it as there's a good many features that were able to shine once the turf and tree issues were handled.

Dan, the courses I've listed in the 2nd grouping are all VERY strong and in most instances have undergone major work to improve what was there already. Think of it this way -- a course in the 3rd listing -- would be anywhere from 21st to 30th in the metro NYC area. Given the sheer depth and qualities the area has already that's quite good in my book.

Part of the issue when rating anything is whether or not there is a depth of courses to compare / contrast. I concur with you on many points regarding Yale but I think you are giving the back side a bit more credit than I would. If you can show me that any one of the courses I've listed in the first two groupings is not worthy of its placement I'd be happy to hear your comments and rationale.

Ted K:

Since you mentioned my 3rd ten is better than my 2nd - I'd be more than interested in any details you can provide whether it be specific course to specific course or some generalized comments tied to specific areas that are lacking from my 2nd grouping.

By the way -- I don't know how recent you have played the courses listed int he 2nd ten. Many of them have made tremendous strides from where they were previously and unlike those who may not believe it the issue of length / cr / slope is far less meaningful for me than many might imagine. Look forward to your comments.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Lewis,

Maidstone falls into my "sporty" category.

My preference, day in and day out, is for "sporty" courses.

I routinely play two 7,200+ Florida courses from the tips, so I'm not adverse to playing long courses, but, in truth, the new lengths are beyond my ability and more importantly, beyond my "fun" threshold.

I used to have no trouble playing ANGC from the tips.
However, since the tips have been moved back, they're now beyond both thresholds, they're simply to long for me.

The same can be said of Winged Foot, Bethpage and other courses from the tips.  It's not that I can't get home in two on a 500 yard par 4, just that it's not likely and it's not likely on a repetitive basis.

I like my 13 degree 3-wood and my 2-iron, but, not when I have to hit them hole after hole after hole.

As much as I might like playing them from all the way back, I'd confine the experience to once a year, at the most, since my mind knows not to bite off more than it and my body can handle.

But, I could play Maidstone from the tips every day and never tire of it.
The challenge remains along with the joy.

There is little joy in playing Winged Foot and Bethpage from the tips on a daily basis.

Perhaps a PGA Tour Pro or an amateur of considerable length would enjoy those courses from the tips, but, in viewing the broad spectrum of the golfing world, I can't imagine many golfers making that their daily choice.

Give me the Maidstone's, the Hidden Creek's, The Garden City's, the NGLA's and others that combine great architecture with a challenge that's still a joy to pursue.

[Dean Stokes]

Patrick, I agree. On any given day the chance to play Bethpage from the tips may be fun - but not every day. I wish to enjoy golf.

Maidstone was extremely fun to play. But if the low handicappers think that because it is only 6500+yds thay will be bored and will 'tear it up' I think they may be wrong.

On another note, a good friend of mine and a fella that should really participate on this site, played Atlantic today. He was MOST impressed. He's played Shinnecock and NGLA and could not say a bad word about it. He felt that it may be a little 'soft' on the approaches to really play like it was really intnded - but he had a great experience.

[JimFatsi]

Matt, fine list, how close is it to the MET list?

I have played most of these, and would find a spot for Century.  Round Hill will be up there also.  As far as comments on Mansion Ridge, its far the quality of the courses on this list.  I worked at GC of Purchase (another Nicklaus) for a number of years, but not sure it would make the list, but the greens were always perfect.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Matt, typing I M H O does not make one "H". I couldn't resist poking at you a bit in good fun.  I would never consider starting a thread on my list of the best courses.  I am not so bold as to presume that others would be interested, however sure I am that I am right!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean Stokes,

I've mentioned the problem with soft approaches and forward hole locations to several individuals at Atlantic.

I had heard that the issue was being addressed.

The golf course continues to improve

Maidstone's yardage can be deceptive as many rounds are played when the air is heavy

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

How long is Maidstone from the "tips?"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

How long is Maidstone from the "tips?"

Phil,

The scorecard I'm looking at shows the yardage as 3,060 out, 3,255 in, for a total of 6,315.

However, this is not a very recent card and the course could be longer today.

[Phil_the_Author]

Pat,

The reason I asked is that you specifically refer to playing courses from the "Tips" as not being fun. "I routinely play two 7,200+ Florida courses from the tips, so I'm not adverse to playing long courses, but, in truth, the new lengths are beyond my ability and more importantly... I used to have no trouble playing ANGC from the tips. However, since the tips have been moved back, they're now beyond both thresholds, they're simply to long for me... The same can be said of Winged Foot, Bethpage and other courses from the tips..."

Yet when refering to Maidstone you say that it is the "sportiness" of the course that gives you pleasure.

My question then is do you define a course' "sportiness" based upon it's length?

For example, can't you simply play ANGC from the regular members tees and find a golf course that really isn't that much longer than Maidstone?

I'm not picking on you, but your comments seem to imply that a course should be routinely played from the "tips" and I don't really think that is what you mean and would love if you would clarify... 



Winged Foot and the Black as not being fun

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff L:

I simply listed my courses because of two reasons -- I get plenty of comments from people -- online and offline to list my courses and second because the listing from The Met Golfer poll was quite illuminating for both good and less than good reasons.

I'm more than happy to debate the reasons for my listing of such courses and if a case can be made I'd be happy to amend my listing as needed. In most cases, people are afraid to post their listings because they don't wish to offend and they also to don't want to be dis-invited for either future rounds or for initial rounds to those courses they seek to play.


Jim F:

Thanks for your comments.

I did not place CC of Purchase because so much of the course tends to the overly penal side of things. For the better player the thought of handling such a situation is not that daunting at most times but for the mid-range player the repetitive nature of the architecture there can be a waterfall of disasterous proportions.

When you mention Round Hill and Century -- I don't disagree about their qualities. But, the challenge is not for people to spit out a few courses and say they belong -- but to create an entire listing in order to get a total picture of the respective person's interests, tastes and preferences.

No doubt when you mentioned Mansion Ridge the creation of a total public list would also be of more interest because of the access issue. I'm in the process in thinking through such a comparable top 50 list and will post that soon.

Phil Y:

WF/W and BB should NOT be played from the tips unless the player is truly a low handicap golfer. That is insane for any person to do so and often causes the issue of slow play since the player is not capable in handling the intensity of the challenges provided.

However, if people do play either of the two courses at a length tied to their skill level then it is possible for them to enjoy what has been designed.

No doubt, both layouts are tremendously demanding and will repel even the slightest of miscues. Nonetheless, both WF/W and BB are superb creations from the hands of A.W. Tillinghast.

[Phil_the_Author]

I neither encouraged nor recommended anyone, least of all Pat  , to play BB or WF from the tips. I merely commented on his statements.

[corey miller]

Matt

I see you have Atlantic in the third ten, is that the Atlantic as designed by Rees or the newly improved/renovated course after help from the Super? 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, have you played Laurel Links.   I have not played all the courses mentioned but I have played about half and would put it just a notch below them but thought it might make the top 50.

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