[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Ditto what Julian asked about -- Metropolis is unique for a host of reasons. Curious to know which Westchester area courses you would place above it.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike S.  I am curious about your thoughts on Metropolis.  How many times have you played it and when was the last time?  What courses would you put ahead of it and why?  Thanks.

I think 3 times and the last was probably 3 years ago after the renovation by Ken Dye (?). I have a business friend there and he is a good senior player. As he is showing me around the course, he is hitting tree after tree. Now with my game, that means I am deep in the woods! Trees in front of fairway bunkers, trees shading greens and more trees!

Obviously a very nice Tilly course when they complete the renovation by clearing out the trees. I don't know what was there before Ken Dye, but they seemed pretty happy with his work.

[corey miller]

I am not sure that tree work has been an important element in any of the Ken Dye metro area renovation plans.  Why immediatly give the membership a contentious issue which might cost a fee?

Is Dye presently working on any Met area courses?

[Jim Franklin]

I played with a guy the oth erday that said given 10 rounds to choose from Hudson Nat'l, Quaker Ridge, and the two Winged Foot courses, he would play 7 at HN and 1 each at the other three. Different strokes for different folks.

I played Garden City for the first time the other day as well. Wow what a fun place. What a great membership too. I cannot recall a club that had that much fun. Plus the members are dedicated to keeping pace of play. If you are playing slowly, you best let the group behind play through.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney, et. al.,

Metropolis is a good golf course.

It was a lot better before they put the tennis courts in and ruined/modified a number of holes.

Ditto the 1st nine at Montclair.

Julian,

AWT meant for golfers to hit long irons and 3 & 4 woods into WFW's greens.

Having played it shortly after Billy Casper's win in 1959 I can attest to the fact that you could wear out your long irons and 3-4 woods.

It was always a long demanding course.

It's interesting that WFW and many, many, many other courses fell victim to tree planting programs starting in the 60's.  Now, they're removing the trees to return the course to its intended configuration.

Unfortunately the same process is taking place with the putting surfaces.

Club after club is softening/flattening them.

However, I don't think they'll ever be able to restore them once they figure out that they made a mistake.

[ChipOat]

Jim Franklin,

I'm afraid you are incorrect about slow play at Garden City.  If you play slowly there you are requested to resign.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S, et al:

You raise a valid concern on the tree front -- but candidly how many trees is enough trees? For some -- it's anything more than one !

Metropolis is still a sound and very well done layout. If you were spraying the ball a tad too much I can understand your feelings. Still, you didn't answer the second part of my post -- if you don't see Metropolis as a top tier layout what other Westchester courses would you place above it besides the ones at WF, QR and Fenway, to name just four?

[Mike Sweeney]

Still, you didn't answer the second part of my post -- if you don't see Metropolis as a top tier layout what other Westchester courses would you place above it besides the ones at WF, QR and Fenway, to name just four?

Sleepy by a mile. Metropolis should look at Sleepy's tree work, and Sleepy still needs some more work in the hole 7-12 area. Sleepy is now my favorite course in Westchester.

Hudson National - shoot me I like (not love) the place. 

Branton Woods - Okay the two holes got squeezed and the greens are not as good, but there are some heroic shots there. It is not actually in Westchester, but Westchester can get there.

Wykagyl - I have not played it, but I am anticipating some good stuff from the C&C renovation.

Westchester CC - I think the Big course is great, and the little course is on par with Metropolis which is nothing but praise for Metropolis.

Westchester has great courses, but they are somewhat one dimensional parkland style. Sleepy and Hudson are at least different.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

You will, at least I think, be impressed with what has happened at Wykagyl. Always had a wonderful site but the tweakings have addaed a good bit to the place.

Please say ain't so with Hudson National -- no way above the likes of Metropolis.

You mentioned Branton Woods but you mentioned your own answer -- it's not in Westchester County.

The little brother at Westchester is a fine diversion but again you are stretching a bit to say it's comparable to Metropolis.

Interesting last take on your saying that a number of Westchester courses are "one dimensional parkland style." There's a good bit of distinctions between them -- depending upon specific location and how much up and down movement you get.

Last point -- Mike, the anti-tree crowd needs to realize that courses that remove "x" percentage of them have done a yeoman's job in moving things forward. No doubt it may be the ideal but it's better than what was there previously. No doubt the improvement -- once it's really noticed -- can and often does spur even more action on this front.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Sweeney:

Wanted to add a bit more on Pound Ridge since I played it again yesterday during an MGWA golf event there.

I do agree on the penal nature of the course -- unless you are driving the ball consistently straight with sufficient distance for the tees you are playing it can be quite demanding. Intense is the likely better word.

I will add that the containment mounding that Pete and Perry included is also a bit of a distraction and needs to be cut accordingly to provide for balls to roll back into play. As it stands now -- the sides are covered in rough grass -- about 3 inches in height -- and it only further complicates the possibility of recoveries.

Providing a bit more fairway width in a number of locations would add to the overall playability while not compromising the inherent challenge. It seems as if the Dyes have followed the ole Trent Jones "choke hold" strategy on a number of holes there -- the 2nd being a good case in point.

The other dimension concerning the 18th hole was one my fellow playing partners agreed with that it's simply overkill to a hole that is already quite demanding.

Nonetheless, Pound Ridge does provide some really outstanding holes. The question is whether future tweakings of the course will come into fruition. We shall see ...

[Pat Burke]

All of this is making me queasy.  I moved away from the metro NY area hen I was 18 to move to so Cal, and looking at the comments about all of these courses just kills me. 
I have said for a long time that southern Cal has been a barren wasteland as far as golf goes, due to the fact that I was blessed to grow up in the New York area.  Man I miss so many of these courses.

[Mike Sweeney]

Matt,

One other course that I think deserves consideration is Hawk Pointe In NJ. Redanman and you have your weird obsession with Morgan Hill (cousin to Hudson Hills and Pound Ridge for "tough property"  ), but I thought HP was the best Kelly Moran course that I have played. In contrast to Laurel Links, the houses only touch on the last hole or two (a few years ago) and it is really a pretty property. It seems to have been lost here since it went private a few years ago. For me it would replace Seawane and by a nose or Alpine on your list. Thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Don't doubt the qualities of Hawk Pointe but Morgan Hill takes what Kelly did there and goes a bit further.

Hawk Pointe unfortunately overdoses on the same length of par-4 -- the midlength variety time after time. There are a few exceptions of note -- the short 6th comes quickly to mind.

Mike, the "weird obsession" you state is based upon the architect taking such a tough site and doing absolute miracles to get such a finished product. Morgan Hill is a testament to Kelly's wherewithal to overcome long odds in getting a golf course situated there inspite of the terrain. That's not to say his work at Hawk Pointe is not be saluted but his work at Morgan Hill only serves to further his ability to handle tough situations and still achieve big successes.

Mike, you need to play Seawane NOW. I don't know when you were there last -- but the course has certainly lost the inane tree growth / coverage and it's more exposed to the various winds that can howl through the site. Stephen Kay and the leadership at the club deserve praise for the finished work.

In regards to Alpine - no way does Hawk Pointe take it out. Alpine just hosted the Jersey State Open and did very well. In fact, the course only yielded a handful of rounds under par and the winner's total two-under-par for 54 holes. The Tillie green contours and the unique nature of the site where level lies must be earned makes for a fine layout that flies considerably below the radar screen for most design junkies on this site and elsewhere.

The one course you mentioned that certainly has quality and can make a top 50 list is Laurel Links. I liked it a lot -- save for the centrality of the housing. Only issue is the nature of the green contours and if the speed of the greens can get too fast to be akin to putt-putt on a few holes.

[Matt_Ward]

I guess what a listing of courses in the NYC shows is just how deep the array of private club options there are throughout the immediate region.

A number of clubs have now taken stock in what has happened to their respective courses and seen fit to make upgrades, corrections, call it what one will. Not every correction is a good one but there are plenty of onesin which the work that's come forward has clearly benefited the course(s).

The issue becomes one of others taking the time to notice these improvements and not automatically assuming that courses of high standing from years ago are still meriting such acclaim now.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

From my perspective, Bayonne is an engineering marvel, and in many ways, it's a tremendous and exciting golf course.   I'm fairly certain that Eric Bergstol got what he wanted out of the design, which is very high on visual dramatics.

I wouldn't rate it as high as you have it, however.   I can't imagine what the average score is out there, frankly, and given the wind conditions, I question the narrowness of a number of holes, I question the length and thickness of the fescue surrounds, and I most seriously question the wild undulations of the greens.   

Most links courses tend to have more subtle, sedate greens, and that's for a good reason.   While I know The Old Course has wild ones, there is also enough width and playability to land a large jet.    At Bayonne, the exactitude required by the severity of the hole locations borders on overkill in any kind of wind.
 
All in all, it's a really fun, exciting course and brutally demanding.   I'm also betting that it could host a US Open, and in that regard, I believe it's more difficult than Whistling Straits.   Still, I can't imagine playing it every day, and most of the courses in my top 20 don't share that caveat.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Thanks for the detailed post / re: Bayonne.

A few reactions to your comments.

Mike, I think you are being a bit tough in your mind regarding the actual architecture present at Bayonne. The visual and engineering aspects need to be celebrated as you have indicated but Bayonne is just not some sort of "man overcoming nature and endless red tape" to create what is there today. In my mind, Bayonne goes far beyond the likes of Shadow Creek and that course is so richly celebrated for a whole host of reasons that are tied more to the creation story than what was eventually produced.

Bayonne has meat on its bones and there are plenty of holes which demonstrate that.

Eric is well traveled and has personally seen / played a number of the great courses in the UK and Ireland. His eye and appreciation is a good bit more than just some sort of developer with a vague promise on what can be done here in the States.

Mike, when you speak about the general wind conditions I have to go back to the usual retort -- it depends upon the tees one plays. Too many people are playing courses beyond their immediate ability level and then after the round concludes weigh in on the overall fairness and proclaim that such courses of this type are not playable. The reality tells me that, more often than not, players would likely form a different opinion if they adjusted where they play from rather than hold in scorn the course itself.

Does the wind blow by New York harbor. And how it does !

But, I've played in windy conditions overseas that are no less than there. Ditto for courses here in the States.

Mike, you mention "in any kind of wind" that's a bit dramatic and with only one play I can only ask how hard the wind was blowing on the day you played. When you generalize to a broader application to mean "any wind" is a bit of a sweeping generalization on your part.

Mike, if you question the narrowness of holes then check out Crystal Downs in Michigan -- where the rough is no less punishing and the narrow nature of a number of holes there is also quite exacting. Ditto the likes of Dunluce at Royal Portrush in Northern Ireland. I can name a number of other courses that follow the rough equivalent of these types of presentations. If Bayonne is held to that standard then should not these other courses?

When you talk about the wildness of the greens again I can name a number of other courses -- the upcoming PGA at Oakland Hills / South comes quickly to mind where the contours are extremely severe and require a jeweler's touch to negotiate them. Keep in mind, that at Bayonne there is sufficient space for one to land your ball and the overall length of the holes doesn't require one to land a 3-metal on the top size of a car hood to be successful. If the course followed the routine of nearby Liberty National in which they sport a layout in excess of 7,400 yards to a par of 70. If you have specific holes which are unfair or play towards that side of things I'd need to hear more from you to discuss fairly.

Mike, the course could never host a US Open because of space restrictions -- from parking to any number of other issues. The driving range is also a second tier admission since land is lacking.

Like I said, Bayonne will not be everyone's cup of tea but I truly believe it offers a playing dimension that is truly a combination of engineering daring do coupled with a golf linkage to what the great courses overseas provide. Granted it's not an exact match but one that is clearly fun and entertaining nonetheless.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

It would help me understand your position more completely if you can place Bayonne in some sort of context. Better than what metro NYC courses you have played and which ones it would fall below.

Thanks for your thoughts / comments.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The fairways at Bayonne are quite generous.

It's the density of the Fescue that needs to be dealt with..

Irrigated Fescue roughs are not conducive to a good golfing experience, let alone scoring.

At Hidden Creek they don't irrigate the Fescue, which allows you to find your ball, and hit a reasonable recovery shot.

Bayonne's Fescue is excessively penal.

You may not find your ball even if you know where it landed, within a foot or two.  And, extracting it may cause you a strained ligament or worse.

If Bayonne reconfigured their irrigation system for the rough I think it would improve the golf course tremendously.

Eric did a fabulous job of creating a neat golf course from nothing.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat / Mike, et al:

The issue of the depth and penal nature of fescue rough is really tied to just how close the stuff is to the line of play.

I have no issue with hay-like grass PROVIDED it is not immediately next to the line of play -- for examp,e, if one had fairway then a six foot strip of secondary rough and then you immediately hit the hay-like stuff.

That would be extreme -- that's what I encountered at Dunluce at Royal Portrush when I last played there a few years back on a number of holes there.

When I have played Bayonne I don't doubt the penal nature of the fesuce rough in many spots. However, that type of grass growth was not so close to the fairway areas. You needed to truly hit an offline shot to get to the most demanding of circumstances.

Pat, in your own words the fairways at Bayonne are "quite generous." If someone hits a shot that is 20 or more yards offline then the penalty for such situations can be extreme and the golfer is subject to whatever the golf gods allow.

That's totally fair game in my book.

[Jim Franklin]

I just had another low handicap friend of mine play Hudson National and he LOVED the place. He was raving about the course and that the greens were perfect. Why do so many on this site not give Hudson credit?

[Scratch_Nathan]

Matt W -

Enjoyed your Top 50 and certainly confess to some differences of opinion... but that's expected.  I applaud your inclusion of Bayonne in your first 10.  I wholeheartedly agree... one of the most inspiring and fun golf courses I've seen, period.

Must admit that I didn't read every post in these four pages... but a couple of questions...

1. Suprised not to see any reference to Manhattan Woods.  Have you played it and if so, why does it not qualify?
2. I love 15 holes at Plainfield but the three down in that flat back corner of the property definitely would eliminate its chances to be in my Met top 10.

I'd be curious to hear about the other noteworthy Met tracks that you have yet to play and are high on your list.

SN

[Jim Franklin]

Scratchy -

Friars Head is one Matt has not played, and probably the only one of note.

[corey miller]

Jim

What does having "perfect" greens mean?  Would that be perfect like Prairie Dunes and Merion and Friar's Head or perfect like any of newer courses with a large maitanance budget and USGA greens running at 13?

How much credit do you want people on this site to give to Hudson National?  Matt has it in his Met area top 50 which is pretty darn good.  

I have not played the majority of the top 50 but I can certainly think of a few Met area courses not on his list that I prefer to play over Hudson National (Rockaway Hunting and Huntington CC come immediately to mind.

Nonetheless, regardless of "where I would prefer to play" it is a Doak 6.

Why don't you ask some questions of your friends that are providing you with all this information?  

[Jim Franklin]

What questions would you like me to ask? They like the greens that roll at 13 and I can't blame them. I am not going to take points away from HN because they have a large maintenance budget. When one friend that plays the New York courses a lot more than I tells me he would play HN 7, WFW 1, WFE 1, and QR 1 out of ten, then that means something.

I prefer Garden City or National.

[Matt_Ward]

Scratch:

For me, the greatness of Bayonne is the twofold story on man's determination (Eric Bergstol) to overcome long and demanding odds to build such a quality course. I still find it hard to believe that golf of that caliber could be built in Hudson County of all places !

You comments on the layout being inspiring and fun is well placed in my mind. I don't doubt many will comment upon the tightness of the property but as Pat Mucci said previously, there is sufficient width in so many spots. I also like the transition sequence of different holes. It reminds me of a classic baseball pitcher who can alter speed, type and location of one's pitches.

You asked a few questions. Couple of quick retorts.

Manhattan Woods is a hodge-podge of different hands on the golf course itself. It's not that anything is really that bad -- it's that little which is there is good enough to crack a listing in such a highly competitive golf arena -- clearly the #1 location among private clubs in the USA. I've played Manhattan Woods several times and everytime I come off the course I get the same reaction I get when I played the time before -- there's nothing there that really drives me to say I REALLY want to play there again.

The issue with Plainfield is one I can certainly agree with in terms of how different holes fit with the rest of the layout. Nonetheless, the totality of what is at Plainfield is superior to so many courses in the metro NYC area. You'd have to tell me in specific terms what courses you see ahead of it. In Jersey I don't see anything touching it -- save for the likes of PV but that's not in the NYC metro area. It would also help for you to tell me what is deficient with the "extra" holes created at Plainfield. Truth be told, I'm not a huge fan of the par-3 14th when played from the extreme back tees to a frontal pin placement.

The main major candidate I've yet to play is Friar's Head and given what others have told me -- in person and on this site -- it would likely grab a top 50 placement as well. Possibly even the top ten but I won't comment until I've played it to say for sure.

Jim F:

Hudson National made my top 50 which means I value what's there. But try to realize when you stack up the older classic designed clubs in Westchester County you have some really high caliber competition to move aside. Hudson National has an easier time cracking the top 50 then it would have in cracking the top five in Westchester. That's not a putdown to HN but more of an elevation in what other layouts exist there.

Jim, regarding your buddy -- many people don't like WF/W because they get their butts royally kicked when they play it. Ditto to a lesser degree with WF/E. I think your friend needs to think it through as well with the QR round total. Hey, it's his opinion -- be curious to know how you would split your time among the courses in question?

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