The 13th at Torrey is earning its architectural stripes..

[John Kavanaugh]

Yesterday from the short tee is was a fun round saver.  Today it is a strategic masterpiece.  A true risk/reward where players like Els go for the green and look stupid finding the bottom bunker and then work their way up to the greenside bunker.  The hole would not be as good without the bunkers the aesthetictions love to hate.

Same could be said for the third with the 147 and then 190 yd tee.  Can't wait to see the 14th from 277.  Strategies...I don't need no stinking strategies.

[David Stamm]

I think the hole is very flawed and was before Rees did his work. If you don't go for it and lay up, it ends up in the same spot as everyone else, at the bottom of the gully. If you go for it and are short, it ends up in the bottom of the gully. Someone on Sunday coming down the stretch is going to end up in a sand filled divot ala Payne at Olympic and that's not startegic. The bunkers look like sand escalators at the local department store. I would like to have seen the bunkers flashed up the face of the slopes.

[Mike Hendren]

The bunkers look like sand escalators at the local department store. I would like to have seen the bunkers flashed up the face of the slopes.

If it's good enough for Seth and Charles...



Ran's profile refers to these as "Raynor's stairstep bunkers...."

[David Stamm]

The bunkers look like sand escalators at the local department store. I would like to have seen the bunkers flashed up the face of the slopes.

If it's good enough for Seth and Charles...



Ran's profile refers to these as "Raynor's stairstep bunkers...."

Not a fan of that either. Those are to the side as well. I was thinking more like this...

[John Kavanaugh]

David,

Are you saying that you do not like the position of the bunkers?

[David Stamm]

David,

Are you saying that you do not like the position of the bunkers?

Not neccesarily. To me, they look like the finishing hole at a minature golf course where your score is determined by which ring in the target you knock your ball in off the ramp with the bottom bunkers being 5 points, the middle being 10 points and the top being 15 points. And I don't see the point in having an opening on a very reachable par 5's for these guys when the it runs severely to the front anyway there. And the bunkers don't intimidate the player like the ones shown above. To answer your question I would've like to have seen something that would've struck a little more fear visually. Sure, this could've been done with the present bunker locations. But the functionality would've been a different with shots just coming up short trickling all the way down to the bottom of it, or plugging.

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone else watching the top three players in the game play the 13th?  Proven right again.

[George Freeman]

David,

Where is the black and white picture from?

Thanks,

George Freeman

[David Stamm]

George, it's Fox Hills (NLE).

[Peter Wagner]

Anyone else watching the top three players in the game play the 13th?  Proven right again.

5, 5, and a 3 from 599 while Vernon was being interviewed on the online broadcast.  Sweet.
I really like the changes in tees - fun for the players and us.

[John Kavanaugh]

Anyone else watching the top three players in the game play the 13th?  Proven right again.

5, 5, and a 3 from 599 while Vernon was being interviewed on the online broadcast.  Sweet.
I really like the changes in tees - fun for the players and us.

I bet Phil wished he had packed a driver.  Scott might also tell his caddie to mind his own business next time.  Oh yea...That bunker shot wasn't so simple, to bad it wasn't hairier just for giggles.

[James Boon]

Instead of sand escalators Rees should have replicated the 6th at St Enodoc or the 4th at Royal St Georges

[Pete Lavallee]

David,

Do you really think the City of SD would be capable of hand raking flashed up bunkers on their municipal course? There does have to be a continuity of style in the bunkering scheme; Rees's bunkers are easy to maintain with a Sand Pro. You may well argue that they are not artistic, but his gift to the City of SD was their ease of maintanence.

[David Stamm]

david,

Do you really think the City of SD would be capable of hand raking flashed up bunkers on their municipal course? There does have to be a continuity of style in the bunkering scheme; Rees's bunkers are easy to maintain with a Sand Pro. You may well argue that they are not artistic, but his gift to the City of SD was their ease of maintanence.

I guess NY's State Park Department is more capable than SD's City department of maintaining a flashed bunker. If so, I'll concede. I agree it needs to be in keeping with the rest of the course. Perhaps it was a matter of more money to work with at BB than at Torrey. Ironic that they were both redone by the same man. (From Ran's profile)

[Pete Lavallee]

David,

For flashed bunkers to be impressive they need to be cut into significant terrain. The 13th is the only place on Torrey where such terrain exists; so flashed bunkers on just this hole would truely be out of place. One cannot compare the terrain at Bethpage to Torrey; one is great for golf the other nonexistent. The bunker style is actually very similar at both courses: the walls are somewhat flat and can be groomed easily with a Sand Pro; the lips are kind of mounded, a definte Rees style.

[Lou_Duran]

David and Pete,

Perhaps it was only by coincidence, but when I've played Bethpage (Black and Red, several months apart), I did not get the conditions suggested by the posted pictures.  Unfortunately, some of the folks who play Bethpage treat it like a muni.  Those beautiful bunkers are still pretty to look at from the distance, but you wouldn't want to be in them.  Others who play at Bethpage regularly might have a more accurate perspective, but it seems that the TP bunker design is the more appropriate for the intended use.  I am from the school that if you can't have form AND substance, always opt for the substance.

[Matt_Cohn]

13 at Torrey has made me sad.

 

[John Kavanaugh]

13 at Torrey has made me sad.

 

Money on Phil?  I don't ever remember a US Open par five more fun to watch.

[Matt_Cohn]

It was fun until that happened.   

[rjsimper]

It was fun until that happened.   

If Phil never met Dave Pelz, that wouldn't have happened...exhibit a for the problems with the 64 degree low bounce wedge.

[Matthew Mollica]

If the pond on 18 were replaced by sand, would the closing hole have even more drama?
It would certainly play more like 13, and generate a far greater scoring spread.

MM

[Matt_Cohn]

How would sand generate a greater scoring spread than water? Nobody would make a 6.

[Matthew Mollica]

Like Phil wasn't going to make 9 today?

If there was sand rather than water before the 18th green,
you'd have more people going for it, and ending up in a bunker 40m short.
Just like Ernie did on 13 today.

As it stands, with water as an absolute penalty before the green,
the risk is too great for the reward for many, who therefore play it as a 3 shotter.

Sand, a seemingly less benign hazard, may see more people go at the green in 2,
falling short, and making a mess of it. That'd be one way in which they could make more than 6.

The other would be to get Adam Scott putt out for them...

MM

[Matt_Cohn]

The difference between 13 and 18 isn't just sand vs. water; it's flat vs. 50-foot-tightly-mown hill.

Tons of guys are going for #18, even Mediate, so I don't agree that the risk is too great for many.

Also, when pro's go for par 5's in two, they don't come up 45 yards short unless a bee stings them in their downswing. I haven't seen any balls one-hop into the front if the lake at 18 yet this week.

A bunker short of #18 would present exactly zero risk to a US Open golfer. Nobody would make a mess of a bunker directly in front of the green.

Number 13 presents a highly unusual and severe setup, and any crazy scores there are an exception to the usual rules.

[John Kavanaugh]

What are your thoughts about the role 13 played in the tournament?  Is there any doubt that this hole is now a textbook on how to build a world class par 5?

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