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Ally Mcintosh

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Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« on: June 13, 2008, 04:51:22 AM »
Now, I don't know nearly enough about either of these courses, having never played them and to be honest, rarely watched them on TV... I know the history of Pebble... and I know Torrey was designed by Billy Bell with major renovation / redesign by Rees Jones...

But during yesterday's coverage on Sky Sports, both Bruce Critchley and Ewen Murray (The lead commentators) described Torrey as a "far better" course than Pebble...

...Although Butch Harmon didn't go that far, he was still singing Torrey's praises...

Please discuss why they are wrong?
 
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2008, 07:32:46 AM »
It costs almost 75% less to play TP. How could it be better? Ok it's 500+ yards longer it has to be better. ;)
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Lou_Duran

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2008, 10:18:24 AM »
No Adam, Pebble Beach is 500+ yards shorter so it must be better.  And full of "strategic" interest, of course. 
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tlavin

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2008, 10:25:35 AM »
No comparison.  Pebble would win in a throwdown on any basis, whether by going 1 through 18 or comparing the courses by 3's, 4's and 5's.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2008, 10:59:29 AM »
It sounds as if someone has been smoking the Kikuyu...
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Mark Bourgeois

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2008, 11:16:00 AM »
If I were an ink stained wretch I would vote for Torrey over Pebble eight nights a week.
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Jim Nugent

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2008, 11:28:37 AM »
I'm hoping someone will give a serious answer to Ally's question. 

 
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JohnV

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 11:31:26 AM »
The scenery on the beach below are better at Torrey so give it one check mark there. ;)
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Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 11:33:56 AM »
Does Pebble get more points because it's right on the ocean and Torrey is farther away "up on the cliffs". I've played Pebble, but never seen Torrey in person.
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tlavin

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2008, 11:37:32 AM »
They are wrong because Pebble Beach has a stretch of holes (6-10) that are among the very best in the world.  They are scenic, well designed and difficult.  Torrey Pines doesn't have a single world-class hole.  Pebble has a number of inland holes that are interesting and demanding; Torrey has a host of straight-away long par 4's that are difficult but mind numbingly dull.  Pebble Beach ends with a tough par 3 and a good risk reward par 5.  Torrey ends with a muni par 5 with a pond that was dug by Barney Rubble and Fred Flinstone.
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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 11:38:53 AM »
JVB,

Huh?  I guess you haven't been down there.  I know it is CA, but let's just say that I made it up the hill a lot faster than what it took getting down.  And I am not sure I like that "wink" emoticon.
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Bob_Huntley

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2008, 11:47:59 AM »
Quote from: Terry Lavin on June 13, 2008, 11:37:32 AM
They are wrong because Pebble Beach has a stretch of holes (6-10) that are among the very best in the world.  They are scenic, well designed and difficult.  Torrey Pines doesn't have a single world-class hole.  Pebble has a number of inland holes that are interesting and demanding; Torrey has a host of straight-away long par 4's that are difficult but mind numbingly dull.  Pebble Beach ends with a tough par 3 and a good risk reward par 5.  Torrey ends with a muni par 5 with a pond that was dug by Barney Rubble and Fred Flinstone.



Terry,

A perfect answer that needs no further clarification.

Bob

I think Terry has answered the question quite adequately and needs no further explanation
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Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2008, 12:20:20 PM »
Failed at humor again , rats.

Since I have not played either course since recent changes I hesitate to comment.
Other than the risk reward part Terry captures a big part of it. The only addition would be the movement on both fairway and greens on every hole at Pebble. Not just the one stretch.
It does appear that Rees' work has improved the penal nature of the design. While at Pebble, in their infinite lack of wisdom have only ruined the look and flow of the course with their lame bunker and tree additions.
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

JohnV

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2008, 01:12:03 PM »
Quote from: Lou_Duran on June 13, 2008, 11:38:53 AM
JVB,

Huh?  I guess you haven't been down there.  I know it is CA, but let's just say that I made it up the hill a lot faster than what it took getting down.  And I am not sure I like that "wink" emoticon.

Lou, I went to UCSD which is about 2 miles south of Torrey Pines and I spent a fair amount of time on Black's Beach in the early '70s.  It was worth the effort to hike down the hill in those days.
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John Kavanaugh

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2008, 01:26:00 PM »
Quote from: Terry Lavin on November 05, 1973, 03:45:45 AM

Torrey Pines doesn't have a single world-class hole. 


I would say that by any standard the 4th at Torrey was a world class hole yesterday.  Who could not love the shots played off the hill.  Ocean and ground game options seem world class to me.  I have always compared the hole to the 4th at Pacific Dunes and now give the edge to Torrey on the green complex.
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JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2008, 02:19:37 PM »
Quote from: John Vander Borght on June 13, 2008, 11:31:26 AM
The scenery on the beach below are better at Torrey so give it one check mark there. ;)

Not always true.About 10 years ago,while waiting on 7 tee,we saw a biker dude and his significant other going at it full tilt in the cove below.No clue how he got his motorcycle down there.

We just assumed he was playing "in the leather".
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David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2008, 02:51:10 PM »
Quote from: JMEvensky on June 13, 2008, 02:19:37 PM
Quote from: John Vander Borght on June 13, 2008, 11:31:26 AM
The scenery on the beach below are better at Torrey so give it one check mark there. ;)

Not always true.About 10 years ago,while waiting on 7 tee,we saw a biker dude and his significant other going at it full tilt in the cove below.No clue how he got his motorcycle down there.

We just assumed he was playing "in the leather".


Ew! That is bad! :D



This is a no contest comparison that I must agree with Bob on. Terry stated everything that needs to be said.
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2008, 02:55:07 PM »
Torrey Pine's 18th reminds me of the 18th in "Tin Cup."
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John Mayhugh

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2008, 04:09:57 PM »
Quote from: Mike Vegis @ Kiawah on June 13, 2008, 02:55:07 PM
Torrey Pine's 18th reminds me of the 18th in "Tin Cup."
Hopefully it can produce as much drama. ;D
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Sam Morrow

Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2008, 04:28:15 PM »
Quote from: Mike Vegis @ Kiawah on June 13, 2008, 02:55:07 PM
Torrey Pine's 18th reminds me of the 18th in "Tin Cup."

Imagine playing the 18th in Tin Cup as the long ass par 4 it is in real life.
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Tim Leahy

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2008, 05:01:38 PM »
Quote from: Terry Lavin on June 13, 2008, 11:37:32 AM
They are wrong because Pebble Beach has a stretch of holes (6-10) that are among the very best in the world.  They are scenic, well designed and difficult.  Torrey Pines doesn't have a single world-class hole.  Pebble has a number of inland holes that are interesting and demanding; Torrey has a host of straight-away long par 4's that are difficult but mind numbingly dull. 

It sounds like you've never played Torrey Pines. Holes 12 and 13 at TP are definitely world class and no. 3 may be better than no. 7 at Pebble in every aspect. No. 16 at TP is very close to no. 17 at Pebble. Holes 6 and 7 are definitely not dull straight away par 4's and neither are holes 14 and 15. I would take holes 1-4 at TP over 1-4 at Pebble in a heartbeat.
That said, nothing at TP rivals 18 or 8 thru 10 at Pebble. Pebble over all is a better course, but not that much better and Torrey is just as tough if not tougher with its length.
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James Boon

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2008, 06:29:53 PM »
I've only seen them both on TV but watching TP I'm looking at the scenery, watching PB I'm looking at the scenery AND the course! Though the USGA seem to have set it up as a good challenge, TP doesn't look like its got that much of interest to me...

I was just looking through Tom Doak's Confidential Guide and he rates PB a 9 on the Doak scale, yet TP only gets a 3. Is Rees "Open Doctor" Jones that good as to improve a course that much? Not sure he is?
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Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2008, 08:48:46 PM »
Riddle me this Batman, take both courses away from their seaside bluffs, are they still world class?

One of them yes, one of them no ...
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PThomas

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2008, 09:13:01 PM »
Quote from: Mike Benham on June 13, 2008, 08:48:46 PM
Riddle me this Batman, take both courses away from their seaside bluffs, are they still world class?

One of them yes, one of them no ...

nice quote Riddler! ;D ;)

and i agree with your sentiments
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Jason Connor

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Re: Torrey Pines v Pebble Beach
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2008, 09:41:05 PM »
I've played Torrey and walked much of PB.  Pebble is much, much better IMO.  Even without the ocean (let's say each was on a big lake) Pebble wins hand down.  Give me 5 free rounds at Torrey or 1 at PB, I'd head north.

One reason is the Pebble requires more heroism, and not that I'm usually a fan of that.  PB #8, while a bit unusual, may be my favorite par-4 in the world.  #7 is just great.  17 and 18 can hold their own as great finishers.

Pebble has much better par 3s, many better par 4s, and the 18th is always on the list of the great par 5s, and I think 6 is underrated given the holes that follow it.

Playing Torrey (before the redesign), it's just amazing how uninsprired the holes are.  The routing is good, though it avoids using the cliffs (and the rattlers) as design features, but so many greens were flat with bunkers at 5 & 7 o'clock.  Hole after hole bunkers at 5 and 7.  Hole after hole.   

Granted the courses' missions are different.  But it's quite evident Torrey is a muni.



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