Torrey: Routed by Wm. F. Bell's mother ?

[Forrest Richardson]

Nacarrato told this story. I have repeated it. Bell's mother (wife of Wm. Park Bell) was said to have been the mastermind behind many of the Bell family routings. At a meeting at an LA area club in the 1970s, Mrs. Bell was introduced to the management by Wm. F., who acknowledged that she had, in fact, routed the club for his father.

Torrey would have fallen right in line with this time period — the 1950s to 1970s.

Anyone with information, disagreements or contrary stories would be a welcome. For me, I like the idea.

[Mike Hendren]

Ma Bell.  Has a nice ring to it.

[Garland Bayley]

Ma Bell.  Has a nice ring to it.

Bogey,

I think the PNW group might have to shun you for that one.

[Mike Hendren]

Garland,  I get a pass - my 82 years old dad started at the phone company at the age of 17 and retired at 58.  Not bad for a country boy from Curve, TN.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I did my first "On my own" routing on my mom's kitchen table......and of course, she always critiqued everything I did, so maybe she should get some design credit!

[Michael Dugger]

I am taking this topic as satire RE: The Merion debate.

[John Goodman]

Ma Bell.  Has a nice ring to it.

 

lovin me some of that, Bogey -

[Forrest Richardson]

I have always been perplexed by the non-returning nines at Torrey South. Any thoughts on that from those here?

[Jay Flemma]

It sort of returns at 6.  I don't have a problem with it not returning at nine.  I just think there isn't good horizontal movement/angles in the fwys or contour in the greens or good vertical movement in the earth.

I played LaCosta North yesterday and thought that was more interesting than Torrey..not prettier, but better greens and a solid routing.  It looks like nothing no the card and in pix, but I had a great time playing it.

[Tom Yost]

The Lyons Golf proposal made to the City of Phoenix  for the Papago renovation contains some Bell family biography and the story of Ma Bell's involvement in course routing is mentioned there.

I believe Forrest Richardson collaborated on the Lyons proposal and he and Mark Fine are credited for the Bell biographical research.

The Lyon's Golf proposal can be downloaded (47MB! PDF file)
http://www.savepapagogolf.com/lyonsproposal.htm

**EDIT**  Duh... after I posted, I realize that it was Forrest who started this thread...  (slaps forehead)

What about the reference to WF as "Billy Bell Jr."   ?  (see the thread started by David Stamm)

[Pete Lavallee]

I have always been perplexed by the non-returning nines at Torrey South. Any thoughts on that from those here?

Here is the stiory I've been told: the South Course was built first, It originally started on the the first 3 holes of the North Course, returning to South #1 as #4. This would make #7 the 9th which does return to the Clubhouse. Bell Jr. then stated another course could be built to the North if 3 additionalk holes were built to the south. These 3 holes: 11, 12 and 13 are without a doubt the toughest stretch on the current South Course; certainly makes sence to me.

[David Stamm]

I have always been perplexed by the non-returning nines at Torrey South. Any thoughts on that from those here?

Here is the stiory I've been told: the South Course was built first, It originally started on the the first 3 holes of the North Course, returning to South #1 as #4. This would make #7 the 9th which does return to the Clubhouse. 

Pete, are you sure it's the 7th? I would think the 6th as 9, no? Very interesting story that makes sense.

[Jay Flemma]

I have the map in front of me.  It's the sixth that returns to the clubhouse.  Seven runs away from the clubhouse.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom — Thanks for the comment. Yes, we wrote that. Since then we have made adjustments to the bio for Wm F. and Wm. P., namely that the references as "Billy Bell, Jr." and "Billy Bell, Sr.", although technically incorrect, were the common references to the two when they were both practicing. This has been confirmed by Paul Fullmer, past Ex. Sec. of the ASGCA., who writes in his book, Presidents I have Known that Wm. F. was referred to as "Billy Bell, Jr." by old friends of his dad.

It would be interesting to get some history/records on the routing at Torrey. I have never seen anything definitive.

[David Stamm]

Tom — Thanks for the comment. Yes, we wrote that. Since then we have made adjustments to the bio for Wm F. and Wm. P., namely that the references as "Billy Bell, Jr." and "Billy Bell, Sr.", although technically incorrect, were the common references to the two when they were both practicing. This has been confirmed by Paul Fullmer, past Ex. Sec. of the ASGCA., who writes in his book, Presidents I have Known that Wm. F. was referred to as "Billy Bell, Jr." by old friends of his dad.

 

Thanks for the info, Forrest. I'm sure in the inner circles that this was the case when his fathers friends called him Billy jr and lord knows he referred to as such by others, but in IMHO, by them doing this it would've likely have contributed to the confusion. Below are some links to some courses that WFB (jr) designed and as you can see, the references are all over the place and one can easliy be confused as to who did what.

http://losverdes.americangolf.com/  (which one?)

http://www.sandpipergolf.com/      (correct)

http://www.elcaminoclub.com/      (which one?)

http://www.ccofrb.com/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=259354&ssid=121527&vnf=1  (correct)

http://missiontrails.americangolf.com/         (this says William, but doesn't list the middle intial)

http://www.alisal.com/golfranch.html   

 http://www.malibucountryclub.net/page/81-2054.htm     

...and this link is a great example of lumping them both together.

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/william-p-bell.html

[Forrest Richardson]

David — A quick look at the list (last link) suggests they may all be Wm. P. — even though some courses attributed to Wm. P were after his death (Torrey is a great example), the elder Bell had routed or created designs for many courses that Wm. F. wound up completing.

I am not convinced that "Jr." or "Sr." causes any more confusion that the often-ill-written "F" and "P" !

[David Stamm]

David — A quick look at the list (last link) suggests they may all be Wm. P. — even though some courses attributed to Wm. P were after his death (Torrey is a great example), the elder Bell had routed or created designs for many courses that Wm. F. wound up completing.

I am not convinced that "Jr." or "Sr." causes any more confusion that the often-ill-written "F" and "P" !

There are a few on the list that were done after Sr's death such as Soule Park (now pretty much a Hanse). As far as the confusion, I guess it's all how you look at it. But when they are both called Billy Bell as shown on some of the links above (no Sr or Jr denoted) it's confusing no matter how you look at it.

[Forrest Richardson]

Imagine the confusion when we were hired by Pueblo del Sol CC in Arizona...

The club had no idea who designed the course, and few records existed. It was built in the late 1960s, early 1970s. Bell (Jr.) was a logical candidate...however, no record. Then, it was pointed out that each year the club held a "Billy Bell Tournament"...so, we begin to put two and two together...until it was found that "Billy Bell" the tournament was named for was an old member...NOT Wm. F. Bell of golf design fame. Finally, we found an old drawing and it was deigned by a civil engineer playing golf designer...who's name was Billy something!

[Steve Lang]

   There was a discussion of the Bell family about a year and a half ago.. I had some comments after playing the Bakersfield CC and investigating other Bell family courses..

BCC is a great shotmaking, power, and feel test of golf packed into section of land..