[TEPaul]

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"Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 12:03:49 pm
Mike:

For my part and from my perspective, it would be virtually impossible for me to route that golf course better than it is now and that is precisely why I think it really is one of the best golf courses and some of the very best architecture in the world.

As you know I'm not a big fan of ranking golf courses but nevertheless, Merion East has always been in my top handful in the world and I don't see that changing any time soon."


David Moriarty said:

"Interesting.  Because in the past you have been quite critical of the original routing of Merion East. Why the change of heart.

By your logic, if Barker's routing was actually on the 117 acres instead of on only 100 acres, then you would have to conclude that his routing would have been about the same as what they ultimately came up with, wouldn't you?   Only with 14-16 shorter, and the addition of the land behind the clubhouse (that Macdonald wanted to add?)  

[Barker did not say that his routing was only on 100 acres.  Connell offered something like 100 acres or whatever it takes for a golf course.  Given the somewhat open wording of the Connell offer, and the timing of the various visits, it is quite possible that the Barker routing included the Dallas Estate property.  I will clarify this in the next draft.]"



David:

This just might be the most incredible post I've ever seen from you! Do you know anything about architecture, about history, about anything do to with this general subject, not even to mention Merion???

What in the hell do you mean Barker's routing?? What was it? Do you have any idea? Does anyone? The same routing on somewhat the same land??? Are you seriously asking that?? Do you know anything at all about the art of routing a golf course?? It certainly wouldn't seem so from you last post! What if Barker went backwards from the way Merion is??? Has that ever occured to you??

What am I missing here from you?? Please tell me? If not it's occuring to me you may know next to nothing about golf course architecture and such a thing as the art and science of routing. I think I already know you know next to nothing about logic and common sense in a rather general context.

My God, how much time have we all wasted playing some game with you and with your apparently rather comprehensive ignorance??? Belay that----eg lack of understanding?? Some time ago you said on one of these post you felt you had a lot to learn, at least about Merion and its architecture and history. I guess I had no idea then, how much!!


Oh yes, the first routing and architectural iteration of Merion East wasn't all that similar to the way it turned out to be over about twenty years. But the topic of our discussion with you is Merion in 1910-1911, nothing more.

But if, in the future, you want to know about the architectural design and evolution of Merion East from 1915-16 and in the 1920s on into the 1930s, then do everyone a favor and come to us UP-FRONT next time!!! 

[Steve_Lovett]

As one who enjoys the subject of golf course design and has never set foot on Merion's property - this all is very tiresome and has diminished the value of this discussion group in my eyes.

It's inarguably a great golf course - right?

Everyone involved in it's creation is now dead.  How anyone can draw conclusions regarding the people involved seems hard to fathom, even with extensive research.  Hell - I don't think anyone could draw conclusions on why I did what I did earlier today, much less try and interpret that 80 years from now. 

[TEPaul]

Steve Lovett:

If I catch your drift, aren't you asking why these two self-promoting people have been doing what they have been doing for the last five years? For us, in Philadelphia, all we've been trying to do is defend the place from their ridiculous attempts at inaccurate revisionist history. Or are you saying we never should have paid any attention to them in the first place?

[Mike_Cirba]

Is there no man who will step forward here?

Is there no one who can come up with a design....of amazing original creativity...

...that shows something different than 6 or 7 holes running north/south on the parcel above Ardmore Avenue, and the other 10-11 running almost all east/west below Ardmore Avenue??

C'mon...what are you guys?   A bunch of novices???   

Seriously.   Can anyone out there step forward and route something wholly different on this property?? 

I dare you...

I double dare you.. 

This isn't personal.

This is architecture.

Let's see your best shot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Everyone involved in it's creation is now dead.  How anyone can draw conclusions regarding the people involved seems hard to fathom, even with extensive research. 

Steve,

In one of the earlier Merion threads, I had suggested a seance.

[Mike_Cirba]

Everyone involved in it's creation is now dead.  How anyone can draw conclusions regarding the people involved seems hard to fathom, even with extensive research. 

Steve,

In one of the earlier Merion threads, I had suggested a seance.

I'm definitely up for that Jeff.   

In the past year or so, between the Cobb's Creek and other related research, I feel like I know many of these ghosts personally anyway, so it would be sort of a reunion. 

[David Stamm]

How would you route Merion? - A Challenge



Am I allowed to ask CBM in 1910?

[Steve_Lovett]

Tom -

I understand why their doing what their doing.  I'm all for research.  Every great place should celebrate it's history, and understand as much about it as possible.  I can't personally identify with the specific issues surrounding the creation of Merion from where I sit here in northeast Florida, however I can't dispute the fact that they are important to what makes it what it is.  I'd also say that specific facts are bound to be fuzzy and somewhat inconclusive based upon the passage of time and the relatively primative nature of record-keeping and correspondence 90 years ago.  

Theoretically, the discussion of the different aspects of this research should be interesting and of value.  

Unfortunately, this topic has become so pervasive on this site - and the discussions so vitriolic - that the credibilty of this debate is diminished.  I'd love to learn something from the conversation, but the value of the dialogue has long-since passed.

That's my drift - more or less...

[Mike_Cirba]

Funny guy you are, David Stamm. 

[Steve_Lovett]

Everyone involved in it's creation is now dead.  How anyone can draw conclusions regarding the people involved seems hard to fathom, even with extensive research. 

Steve,

In one of the earlier Merion threads, I had suggested a seance.

Jeff -

Even with a seance, do you really think the old dead guys would really remember what happened 90 years ago, and why/how/who?

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Can I ask you a question? And can I also ask you to give me a straight yes or no answer to my question unlike what this bobbing and weaving David Moriarty is capbable of?

Here's the question:

Is the point of your thread here to try to prove that the site of Merion East is not that hard to route because of it's configuration, even for a potentially talented guy like Hugh Wilson who a yahoo like David Moriarty calls a rank novice who couldn't have pulled it off without getting a Macdonald to basically do it for him?

Now don't fart around here like this guy Moriarty has been doing, just give me a simple yes or no answer.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Everyone involved in it's creation is now dead.  How anyone can draw conclusions regarding the people involved seems hard to fathom, even with extensive research. 

Steve,

In one of the earlier Merion threads, I had suggested a seance.

Jeff -

Even with a seance, do you really think the old dead guys would really remember what happened 90 years ago, and why/how/who?

Steve,

Never having actually been to a seance, I guess I figured the old dead guys came back in the prime of life, with a perfect memory. Of course, we would just have to hope old Hugh came back as Hugh, Circa 1912 or later......

[DMoriarty]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Quote from: TEPaul on Today at 12:03:49 pm
Mike:

For my part and from my perspective, it would be virtually impossible for me to route that golf course better than it is now and that is precisely why I think it really is one of the best golf courses and some of the very best architecture in the world.

As you know I'm not a big fan of ranking golf courses but nevertheless, Merion East has always been in my top handful in the world and I don't see that changing any time soon."


David Moriarty said:

"Interesting.  Because in the past you have been quite critical of the original routing of Merion East. Why the change of heart.

By your logic, if Barker's routing was actually on the 117 acres instead of on only 100 acres, then you would have to conclude that his routing would have been about the same as what they ultimately came up with, wouldn't you?   Only with 14-16 shorter, and the addition of the land behind the clubhouse (that Macdonald wanted to add?)   

[Barker did not say that his routing was only on 100 acres.  Connell offered something like 100 acres or whatever it takes for a golf course.  Given the somewhat open wording of the Connell offer, and the timing of the various visits, it is quite possible that the Barker routing included the Dallas Estate property.  I will clarify this in the next draft.]"



David:

This just might be the most incredible post I've ever seen from you! Do you know anything about architecture, about history, about anything do to with this general subject, not even to mention Merion???

What in the hell do you mean Barker's routing?? What was it? Do you have any idea? Does anyone? The same routing on somewhat the same land??? Are you seriously asking that?? Do you know anything at all about the art of routing a golf course?? It certainly wouldn't seem so from you last post! What if Barker went backwards from the way Merion is??? Has that ever occured to you??

What am I missing here from you?? Please tell me? If not it's occuring to me you may know next to nothing about golf course architecture and such a thing as the art and science of routing. I think I already know you know next to nothing about logic and common sense in a rather general context.

My God, how much time have we all wasted playing some game with you and with your apparently rather comprehensive ignorance??? Belay that----eg lack of understanding?? Some time ago you said on one of these post you felt you had a lot to learn, at least about Merion and its architecture and history. I guess I had no idea then, how much!!


Oh yes, the first routing and architectural iteration of Merion East wasn't all that similar to the way it turned out to be over about twenty years. But the topic of our discussion with you is Merion in 1910-1911, nothing more.

But if, in the future, you want to know about the architectural design and evolution of Merion East from 1915-16 and in the 1920s on into the 1930s, then do everyone a favor and come to us UP-FRONT next time!!! 

Relax T m,  it is Cirba who apparently believes there was only one way to route Merion.  I was just pointing out where that absurd logic takes him. 

________________________

How would you route Merion? - A Challenge



Am I allowed to ask CBM in 1910?

Funny.  But your comment also points us toward the giant elephant in the room that some are intent on ignoring.   This was 1910-1911, and we are talking about Charles Blair Macdonald and H.J. Whigham.   Given their extensive involvement anyway, it is inconceivable that Merion would not have asked CBM and HJW for their ideas on the routing.   

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm still seriously waiting for someone to produce a routing that is markedly different from the original.   

Perhaps I'm slow on the uptake...and admittedly a novice...I just don't see all the options requiring expert, experienced knowledge.

If I'm missing something please point it out.

Thanks.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wasn't the routing altered in 1922?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

When a historical record can't be substantiated it ceases being the historical record.

The burden of proof you demand from M&M must be applied to those providing the historical record you allude to.

Only then will the historical record be a product of factual evidence and not myths and legends.

That's fair isn't it.

As to MacDonald, you're confusing my enjoyment of the style he created which Raynor and Banks perpetuated with objectivity.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I'm still seriously waiting for someone to produce a routing that is markedly different from the original.   

Perhaps I'm slow on the uptake...and admittedly a novice...I just don't see all the options requiring expert, experienced knowledge.

If I'm missing something please point it out.

Thanks.

Mike,

While I haven't done your excersize, I have to admit I doubt yours, mine, Barkers, or anyones routing could be a lot different, unless the holes were reversed in the same corridor.  The bulk of the property is either two or four holes wide, limiting options.   There is no way a routing could be done cross ways and get even 6000 yards out of it, as evidenced by the fact they had to buy land to move holes 10-12 from crossing the road.  Even those holes aren't too long.

That's why I believe Barkers routing had to have had some influence, even if it was ultimately revised.  Perhaps the influence was to set the property boundaries in the first place, acquire the Dallas Estate, to lengthen the course, etc.  But, if the "L" shape was generally established, how much different could his initial routing have been?  (That is not true on many sites, but here it probably is)

Of course, I presume he knew a little about what he was doing.....but I suspect that he got at least some of the holes "right" in his attempt which carried over to the final routing.  BTW, its amazing the creek lines up as well as it does to be between holes, but where it crossed probably influenced the direction they used.

[Garland Bayley]

Hi Mike,

Here's the thread.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35031.0.html

How did I do?

Very well...I hope others weigh in.

Well it is heading well down the second page with nary a reply. On a better note, I found a picture of a course I used to walk as a young shaver with my dad before I played golf and put it up on the William Hickman Diddel thread. That stimulated this site's interest in Bill Diddel, again and it is getting posts. Maybe I should claim the holes at Springfield were done posthumously by Bill Diddel.

[Steve_Lovett]

I'm still seriously waiting for someone to produce a routing that is markedly different from the original.   

Perhaps I'm slow on the uptake...and admittedly a novice...I just don't see all the options requiring expert, experienced knowledge.

If I'm missing something please point it out.

Thanks.

Mike,

While I haven't done your excersize, I have to admit I doubt yours, mine, Barkers, or anyones routing could be a lot different, unless the holes were reversed in the same corridor.  The bulk of the property is either two or four holes wide, limiting options.   There is no way a routing could be done cross ways and get even 6000 yards out of it, as evidenced by the fact they had to buy land to move holes 10-12 from crossing the road.  Even those holes aren't too long.

That's why I believe Barkers routing had to have had some influence, even if it was ultimately revised.  Perhaps the influence was to set the property boundaries in the first place, acquire the Dallas Estate, to lengthen the course, etc.  But, if the "L" shape was generally established, how much different could his initial routing have been?  (That is not true on many sites, but here it probably is)

Of course, I presume he knew a little about what he was doing.....but I suspect that he got at least some of the holes "right" in his attempt which carried over to the final routing.  BTW, its amazing the creek lines up as well as it does to be between holes, but where it crossed probably influenced the direction they used.

I just looked at a Google Earth aerial of Merion.  It a very restrictive property to contemplate many multiple routing options.  It's interesting that it's routing has been celebrated and widely discussed as it has, given it's tightness and the fact that there is no par-5 after the 4th hole, the practice grounds are 500 yards from the clubhouse, and the street & perimeter out of bounds are all on the slice side on the portion of the site south of the road.  Most of these would be points of critique in the consideration of an optimal routing.

Do other elements, aside from the routing, make Merion as special as it is?



 

[D_Malley]

i think the interesting thing is that there is OB in play on 13 out of 18 holes.  if a course was routed today with that much OB in play it would probably get blasted on this website.

[Mike_Cirba]

Some really good, insightful answers here.

Thanks for taking this in the spirit it was asked.

[Garland Bayley]

i think the interesting thing is that there is OB in play on 13 out of 18 holes.  if a course was routed today with that much OB in play it would probably get blasted on this website.

I think most posters here understand the acreage requirements for a course. Therefore, if they knew it was 120 acres, they would tend to give it a pass on that account.

[Steve_Lovett]

i think the interesting thing is that there is OB in play on 13 out of 18 holes.  if a course was routed today with that much OB in play it would probably get blasted on this website.

I think most posters here understand the acreage requirements for a course. Therefore, if they knew it was 120 acres, they would tend to give it a pass on that account.

Agreed.  It's a tight site - and given that, the extent of OB is very understandable.  But, in general terms, it'd be better to have OB on the hook side than the slice side - I would think.

[Mike_Cirba]

Good point Steve but you also have a fixed clubhouse location to consider that makes that tricky.

[Steve_Lovett]

Good point Steve but you also have a fixed clubhouse location to consider that makes that tricky.

Why is the clubhouse location fixed?  Wouldn't the clubhouse site be selected as a part of the routing process? 

If the clubhouse was placed along Ardmore Avenue, wouldn't it reduce the extent of golf which is influenced by the roadway, and expand the width of available land (in the east-west direction) on the northern portion of the property.

I'm speaking in extreme hypotheticals - in that I've never been there, and what is there is recognized as one of the great places in American golf. 

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