Framing, Pine Valley vs. Prairie Dunes

[Chris_Clouser]

Almost everyone has talked on here or is aware of the "Pine Valley" syndrome that many designers fall into today that try to mimic the framing at PV.  Well, in going through my notes and photos on Prairie Dunes, I notice that many of the holes at this course seem to be isolated from other holes due to "framing."  The only holes on the course that really are easy to see from another hole are some of the holes that Press completed (3 & 4, 12 & 13, 14 & 15).  I know you can see the 8th from the 1st and the 9th, but aside from this the other holes are much more difficult to see from other holes or at the most limited.  Or maybe I just missed something.  But did anyone else who visited the course get the same feeling?  How often is this type of framing used on links courses in England, Ireland and Scotland?  Does anyone have other thoughts on the subject?

[Mark_Fine]

Chris,
I posted on this many months back.  The issue with "framing" is in it's definition (we all have different ones).  I've played wide open links courses where holes were beautifully framed.  

I think the reason "framing" has a negative conotation is because many people think holes that are "framed" are manipulated in some way by the architect (so they look framed).  That may or may not be the case.  There are many natural golf holes that are perfectly framed.  Go play Cypress Point or Turnberry for example and you'll see what I mean  
Mark

[brad_miller]

Chris, no framing at PD just a course that weaves through the sand dunes some of which are quite large. There are plenty of open vistas, one of the best is from the 9th green.

[Mark_Fine]

Brad,
Are you inplying that PD has no framing because of the lack of trees?
Mark

[brad_miller]

Mark, no just that is done naturally with the dunes in most places except the cottenwoods on certain holes. I'am making a distinction between the archie working with nature and one where he/she creates his/her own framing with trees, bunkers, mounds....

[Rob_Waldron]

One of the best examples of "framing" that I have seen is Kinloch GC in Richmond.  Typical corridors range between 300-400 yards, however Kinloch corridors are in the 600 yard range. This was done in an effort to accomodate the cultivation of bentgrass (as opposed to bermuda grass) which is not used as far south as Richmond. What I found facinating was how well each hole was framed with trees and the hole layout in the middle. Unlike most courses the trees rarely came into play, merely serving to define the hole. The cost tp build this course was extremely high, however the result is fabulous! (Best new private in GD for 2001).    

[TEPaul]

I think you have to be very careful when you start to discuss something like "framing" as something that is either absolutely positive or absolutely negative in golf architecture!

Pine Valley, naturally and now is about as different from Prarie Dunes as you can get and much of it has to do with where the two courses are--the way the land is, was and probably always will be--particularly if it's trees or the lack of them you're talking about!

Thank God they are different that way--they are two really great golf courses and two courses that're supposed to be different that way.

Pine Valley did get overgrown to some extent in the last 30-40 years but they are doing something about that now. But it was never supposed to be a course that did not have trees.

Crump wanted the holes separated by trees--he even wrote that he did and he routed and designed it that way. Those who propose that Pine Valley should have it's trees removed and all the holes visible from one to the other basically have no idea what they're talking about! It was never supposed to be that way and it never will be!

Praries Dunes, on the other hand is a different kind of site!

Just the names of the two courses alone should give you some idea of how different they are supposed to be--framing or not!

[Paul Turner]

Chris

Yes, there are links that have holes that are essentially separated from eachother.  Sandwich is one that comes to mind and the back 9 at Ballybunion, through the big dunes.

TomP

How was the hole design influenced by Crump's intent to have tree lined fairways?  I still think (from photos) that the course looked more impressive with more open vistas.

[BCrosby]

Rob -

600 yard corridors?  You mean the corridor for a modest, say, 400 yard par 4 at Kinloch is 600 yards?  The footprint of the hole is wider than it is long?

What am I missing?

Bob

[Rob_Waldron]

Bob

Sorry, I am so used to discussing golf holes in yards. It should be feet, you know like a foot, which I apparently now have inserted into my mouth.

Rob

[BCrosby]

Rob -

Not to worry. 600 feet/200yards is still damn impressive.

I'm trying to get to Kinlock this fall.  I'm working on my kitchen pass, with mixed results so far.

Can't wait to see the course.

Bob

P.S.  A personal reason for the visit is that I used to caddy for Vinnie Giles when he played on the UGA golf team in the mid-60's. He and Jimmie Gabrielson played 1,2. Both went on to US AM championships and Walker Cup teams. To this day I can still see some of the incredible shots they hit at the Athens CC, the UGA home course at the time.  Man they could play.