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Melvyn Morrow

Mr T MacWood - Your source for the comment, “the use of the clubhouse restroom might result in Old Tom being given design credit”

In your essay, “The Early Architects: Beyond Old Tom”, under the heading of Conclusion you stated:-

 “A site inspection, a grand opening appearance, a minor redesign, advise on green keeping matters or the use of the clubhouse restroom might result in Old Tom being given design credit”.

I would request for the record your interpretation of ‘Minor redesign’. My understanding is that it describes a change to the design  thus releases the previous designers from any liability on his original work as it has been changed – the amount of the change is unimportant as it has altered the original. Minor changes to certain formulas have offered many breakthroughs in the sciences over the last 150 years.

I would also like some examples i.e. the names of clubs that credited Old Tom with their course design knowing that he only inspected the site, made a grand opening appearance or advised on green keeping matters.

My last request for the moment, although my family believe it’s the most important, is the source and proof for your statement, ‘or the use of the clubhouse restroom might result in Old Tom being given design credit’.
This is the most heinous, despicable and unworthy comment ever made against British Golf and our Clubs.

Armed with this knowledge, it is our intention to send your details with source material proving your statements, to the clubs or individuals responsible, in the hope of trying to establish a true record of events. 

I have only started to research Old Tom last year, and have found articles given Old Tom Morris credit for a design. On closer inspection many of the articles are for holiday and/or golf tours. Errors have indeed been made, but in fairness not deliberately misleading. Many confused between understanding the importance of the original design and redesign (major or minor). One example is Lahinch, where Old Tom is credited with some of the 1892 work, when records clearly stated his visit was not until 1894. There are more examples but these are not malicious - no real intention to enhance or erode Old Tom’s reputation, no ulterior motive but just based upon minimal research or simple ignorance.

Thomas MacWood

Melvyn
That was an attempt to interject some humor into the piece.

An example of minor redesign? This is from a Golf magazine report from July of 1894: “Lahinch was discovered two years ago and has been visited by Tom Morris who pronounced it of the finest links in the United Kingdom. Morris and his daughter and granddaughter arrived at Lahinch on the afternoon of the 29th of May. He went over the links and offered suggestions on the lengthening of several holes, but on the whole making no radical changes to the links, which was originally projected by Captain AW Shaw and James McKenna.”

You credited OTM with the design of Princes Mitcham Common - that was only a site inspection.

Grand opening and agronomic advice: St. Andrews New

When you originally posted your essay you included a list of OTM's courses. What happened to it?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 09:14:37 AM by Tom MacWood »

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn
That was an attempt to interject some humor into the piece.

Morbid humour, considering the way Old Tom died.

Melvyn Morrow

Tom

Humour, you call that humour – I certainly do not call that humour – so in fact it was totally untrue and a simple lie for humour. Make’s one wonder what else can be described as humour in your essay - you do yourself a disservice and hurt true research.

As for Lahinch lets look at the facts with an open mind from the article you are quoting from – Golf, July the 3rd 1894.

Lahinch G C, Old Tom did not design the original in 1892, although some articles have mentioned he did, but that was just down to poor research. Old Tom travelled to Lahinch on the 29th of May 1894 with his daughter Elizabeth & granddaughter.  Quote

“He at once proceeded to investigate the links and went over them very carefully, offering some suggestions to lengthening of several of the holes
and but on the whole make no radical changes to the course, which
was originally projected by the Captain, Mr A W Shaw and the club professional James Mckenna.”

Drop a few more lines on the article and I give you another Quote

“The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it.” 

Old Tom was at Lahinch for a few days and made no radical changes, but altered – modified the course, yet you do not give Old Tom any credit claiming it’s down to Mckenna. You dismiss it as minor redesign, but reading the Golf report it’s more than minor when you incorporate the second sentence. Old Tom attended not on holiday as you once suggested but to inspect and make modifications as required. No Radical changes (word radical means fundamental or extreme), but certainly alternation, so in my book and most of those I know agree that Old Tom Morris modified Lahinch. I expect Mckenna actually undertook the actual supervising of the modifications of the course. Minor perhaps but not as minor as you seem to make out.

My list was never taken down (if I understand your comment), it was a draft ongoing document with sub sections re Original Surveyed, modified, Re-designed or designed, I tried to list the number of holes he was responsible for and its heading was “Clubs and Courses connected with Old Tom Morris”. It is a working document and still not complete, yes, some errors, some changes, but it is aimed at getting at the truth – nothing more.

I have a basic approach to history and research. I just want to know what actually happened. I have nothing to lose, if I get something wrong then I am man enough to admit it, the truth is my interest, I don’t need to belittle others to prove any obscure theory.

Paul
Thanks for the comment.

Thomas MacWood

Melvyn
I'm sorry you feel that way. IMO golf architecture history, and all history, is best when told in an entertaining way. I don't think anyone took the restroom comment as anything other than a humorous exaggeration to make a point.

Today Lahinch claims their course was originally designed by OTM.

It may be an interesting exercise if you brought your list back out. I made a copy of it and have gone over it. If you'd like we go course by course, and look at the documentation OTM's involvement, what is left, conflicting info, etc.

Melvyn Morrow


Tom

I enjoy a good joke and agree that humour is important, but you used it as a dig at Old Tom and my family. That I certainly don’t find amusing and does not help in serious research for the truth.

You seem to be wrong regards Lahinch. Lahinch G C as far as I am aware always said that Shaw asked Old Tom over in 1894, never in 1892. I have just checked again and they do not claim Old Tom designed the course in 1892, they say was by E D Hunt accompanied by Shaw & R J Plummer with the help of some Officers from the Black Watch Regiment marked out the course in 1892. Sorry your statement is incorrect i.e.Today Lahinch claims their course was originally designed by OTM.

As for my list I never deleted it, although it has moved on and I hope to start my updates later this month. As for the offer, thank you but I am already working with a reputable golf historian, not just on current courses, but seeking the sites and locations of the old lost and closed courses. 

Research is not only about reading articles from books, magazines etc, but from getting your hand dirty and examining all aspects and sources. Let’s hope in years to come someone will not misread your article and believe that Old Tom was credited with certain designs because he used the restroom.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,
If you read the entirety of what the essay says, I don't see how you can criticize anything as "a dig at Old Tom and my family."

Here's the entire paragraph containing the sentence that troubles you:
"Now that we have examined this period by way of its leading practitioners there are several observations to be made. The first point relates to the title of this essay, and the number of golf courses erroneously attributed to Old Tom Morris. Old Tom is one of the most important figures in the history of the game, and one of the most significant course designers of this early period. Not only did he lay out a large number of golf courses, he was instrumental in spreading the game at a most crucial time. That being said there are scores of courses (some of them very prominent courses) that Morris biographer Robert Kroeger and others have given to Old Tom that are actually the work of others. In fairness to these Morris biographers it is not entirely their fault. In Old Tom’s day clubs were eager to have his name associated with their golf courses. A site inspection, a grand opening appearance, a minor redesign, advise on greenkeeping matters or the use of the clubhouse restroom might result in Old Tom being given design credit. Lahinch and Rosapenna are two glaring examples. It should also be noted this practice is not unique to OTM - there has been tendency for some clubs to overplay the involvement of James Braid, Donald Ross and other favored architects. Whatever the motivation of these clubs and authors, there is no need to exaggerate Old Tom’s already outstanding record, especially when it is done at the expense of these men."

If MacWood is criticizing anyone, it's the clubs or authors that incorrectly credited Old Tom with something that he did not do.  You really have to take that quote out of context to say it's disparaging Old Tom or your family.  Read the last sentence of the paragraph again.  That's the central point the author is making.


Thomas MacWood

Melvyn
I stand corrected on Lahinch. Perhaps I was thinking of Kroeger's book or the club history

I didn't say your list was deleted I said it was taken down, moved, if you like. I'm not sure if your hands were dirty or not when you created your original list, but I had questions on about 1/3 of the courses you listed. As I said I copied it and would be glad to re-post it and we can go over it.

For example Rosapenna. In a previous thread you said you had uncovered info in the Lordships papers or archives. What did you find regarding OTM's involvment?

Melvyn Morrow

John

Thank you for your opinion. For your information I did read the essay. As you seem well versed with my family perhaps you can tell me who the Morris biographers are. As much as I enjoy Bob’s book on the courses of Old Tom you can’t call him one.

What I find unbelievable is that a Golf Historian gets it wrong re Lahinch, Also last year Tom MacWood said that the Old Tom hype was a modern phenomenon created in the last 25-30 years, yet within the paragraph you mentioned from his essay there is the statement “Old Tom’s day clubs were eager to have his name associated with their golf courses” – so not a modern phenomenon??

I have a right to my opinion, even more if it’s my family being discussed when the essay was meant to be BEYOND OLD TOM. Its opinions nothing more. Just look at the inconsistencies re Lahinch & Old Tom’s fame. ‘Expense of these men’ indeed - again that Tom’s opinion which I don’t agree with but he has the right to his thoughts and opinions.

Tom, my list is based upon Old Tom having a connection with the Clubs & courses, - he had a connection with all listed. From Carnegie (Skibo) to the New Course St Andrews. As for Rosapenna – you will just have to wait – all information is being checked for additional information and original source. Only a 1/3, I must be improving, I’ll send you a copy when the list has been completed

One thing for certain is that more credit is now being given to those early pre 1900 designers. From their magnificent endeavours the sport is now played all over the world.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn,

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the history, Tom's comment that you take such umbrage at was clearly a) an attempt at humour (and a not completely unsuccessful one in my view) and b) a dig not at Old Tom, or you, or any other member of your family, or your family at large but at clubs claiming Old Tom's design unjustifiably.  By all means have the historical debate.  Please don't drag us into another stupid Merion style mudslinging contest by being over-sensitive.  We have the golfing population of Philadelphia to do that for us, I think Scots should be better than that.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Melvyn Morrow

Mark

Thanks for the support. I must be in the wrong. Clearly Old Tom was not involved at Lahinch and was only a recent phenomenon created in the last 25-30 years as confirmed by Tom. Stupid of me, should have know better.

No  - I see no point in a historical debate – certainly do not want to drag the members of this site into a debate to discover the real truth.

Thomas MacWood

Melvyn
It was Robert Kroeger who implied Morris designed (or completely redesigned) Lahinch. He wrote, "In 1897, the course had been changed somewhat from Morris' original layout, but it still bore his trademark."

Phil_the_Author

Tom,

Could the phrase "from Morris' original layout" be refering to the course as described in this quote that melvyn used? “The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it.” 

In that sense, the writer isn't refering to the course as originally laid out, but the course that Morris originally laid out, that is, the redesigned course.

Just a thought that would seem to bring the several quotes into a reasonable agreement...

Thomas MacWood

Phil
When that sentence was proceeded by "He went over the links and offered suggestions on the lengthening of several holes, but on the whole making no radical changes to the links, which was originally projected by Captain AW Shaw and James McKenna" is it logical to conclude it was OTM's golf course?

I know OTM was fast but its also difficult to imagine that he could alter the course so significantly in less than 24 hours that it would result in the course being called OTM's original layout.

Melvyn Morrow

From the Golf article 3 July 1894

“The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it.” 

WHEN IT WAS ALTERED perhaps being the words to focus upon. Or am I missing something

Thomas MacWood

Melvyn
I think you are missing the part that actually describes the changes: "offered suggestions on the lengthening of several holes, but on the whole making no radical changes to the links."

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
I think we can use this designing in the bathroom scenario as a vehicle to to get to the bottom of the entire "lay out" confusion.

Is laying something out in the toilet the same as planning to lay something out in the toilet?   Certainly not.  One can plan all day, but until one is on the toilet doing it, nothing is laid out. 

But if one happens to be on a toilet, and they happen to lay something out in the toilet without any planning, then that too is laying something out in the toilet. 

Likewise, laying a course out on the ground is not the same as planning to lay a course out on the ground, but it is possible for one to lay out a course without pre-planning the layout.   

Sorry for the aside, but I thought it was important enough to interrupt.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Do you have any information on E.D Hunt? My family is originally from the area and since they were the only Hunts in the county he is probably related to me which is kind of cool.  My Dads got a family tree that goes back pre-famine so I’ll check that.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sorry for the aside, but I thought it was important enough to interrupt.

Next time try fighting that thought.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Melvyn Morrow

Tom

Some selective reading I think.

“He at once proceeded to investigate the links and went over them very carefully, offering some suggestions to lengthening of several of the holes
and but on the whole make no radical changes to the course, which
was originally projected by the Captain, Mr A W Shaw and the club professional James Mckenna.”

“The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it.” 

It would seem that more than just lengthening of several holes was recommended.

 
Matthew
Hunt was from Limerick see Lahinch web site http://www.lahinchgolf.com/beginnings.html#


DMoriarty  Why am I not surprised, you still come across as that little girl - grow up and show some maturity. 

David, Thank you, I’m with you on that comment

Kyle Harris

Tom

Some selective reading I think.

“He at once proceeded to investigate the links and went over them very carefully, offering some suggestions to lengthening of several of the holes
and but on the whole make no radical changes to the course, which
was originally projected by the Captain, Mr A W Shaw and the club professional James Mckenna.”

“The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it.” 

It would seem that more than just lengthening of several holes was recommended.

 
Matthew
Hunt was from Limerick see Lahinch web site http://www.lahinchgolf.com/beginnings.html#


DMoriarty  Why am I not surprised, you still come across as that little girl - grow up and show some maturity. 

David, Thank you, I’m with you on that comment


Melvyn,

To me, it just seems that Old Tom wanted to go out and double check. Absent any specific reference to the suggestions made on the next morning, we can only really determine that Old Tom wanted to make sure his suggestions were to be good ones. Is it not possible that he changed his mind on several things and actually suggested LESS than the day before?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 04:33:06 PM by Kyle Harris »

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Quote
It would seem that more than just lengthening of several holes was recommended

Melvyn, what exactly are you seeing there that leads you to believe that OTM did more, other than the lengthening of several holes? 

Also, does anyone know who exactly wrote the article and whether it is possible/likely either much more or much less was actually done by OTM than what this author wrote?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sorry for the aside, but I thought it was important enough to interrupt.

Next time try fighting that thought.

I tried, but I just couldn't hold it any longer.  I had to lay it out there.

________________

DMoriarty  Why am I not surprised, you still come across as that little girl - grow up and show some maturity. 

See that is my point.  With a female it is hardere to tell whether they planned it first or just layed it out.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
John
Thank you for your opinion. For your information I did read the essay. As you seem well versed with my family perhaps you can tell me who the Morris biographers are. As much as I enjoy Bob’s book on the courses of Old Tom you can’t call him one.
I don't understand your comments.  I would not consider myself "well versed with" your family and have not made any claim of the sort.  I do consider myself well versed with comprehension of written English, though.  That was the only thing that I was commenting on. 

I have no idea what Tom MacWood has said about Old Tom Morris in the past and whether he was wrong or right.  The sole purpose of my post was to clarify what Tom's written words said about the clubhouse restroom.  This was not a dig at anyone in your family and I do not see why you interpreted it as such.  That is the extent of my opinion.

This should not be acrimonius.

Phil_the_Author

Tom,

You misunderstand what I meant. I am simply asking if from the perspective of the writer of the article. Wasn't he simply refering to what HE phrased as the original proposed work that was suggested by Old Tom and simply wrote of it in that fashion?

From my reading it appears, and this is just an opinion, he was simply writing in a manner consistent with his times. He wasn't making serious or definitive attribution but rather a simple statement.

Look at the lines quoted in context to each other:

Golf article, "He at once proceeded to investigate the links and went over them very carefully, offering some suggestions to lengthening of several of the holes and but on the whole make no radical changes to the course, which was originally projected by the Captain, Mr A W Shaw and the club professional James Mckenna... The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it..."

Kroeger's quote, "In 1897, the course had been changed somewhat from Morris' original layout, but it still bore his trademark."

Notice how in the first one he used the phrase "originally projected." They were looking at a course now built and not at a proposal. So this phrase carried more than the meaning we might attribute to it today as something proposed. He clearly used it with the meaning of completed and built.

In the same way, isn't it possible that more is being read into Kroeger's words than what he was actually saying. I don't see him doing as you stated, calling Lahinch "OTM's original layout." Rather he simply said that Lahinch had already been changed from the course that Old Tom had changed it to.

As far as your thought, "I know OTM was fast but its also difficult to imagine that he could alter the course so significantly in less than 24 hours that it would result in the course being called OTM's original layout."

I'm not calling it that, but he most assuredly could have done so. He is walking an existing course and note the other portion of the quote, "when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it..."

Evidently he hadn't just suggested a single or series of very minor changes, but "as much as possible" suggests to me that he may have made a number of suggestions in the belief that some would be accepted and some not.

By the way, is the "Captain" in both quotes the same person? This is important as well as he clearly is referred to in the first quote as the designer of the original course ("which was originally projected by the Captain").

Is it possible that Old Tom was acting in a politically sensitive manner here, not insulting the designer in front of "Mr. Shaw" who, as the ONLY person actually named in the original quote, must have been a man of importance, at the very least at Lahinch.

Then the next day, when "Mr. Shaw" wasn't present he spoke far more freely and made many more suggestions? One might also infer, and not necessarily correctly, that "Mr. Shaw" may have been overseeing the financial side of the club's interest's, again because of the use of the phrase "as much as possible would be made."

It seems from this there were restrictions on what could and would be done and quite obvious that just a few years later, after the changes, major or minor, suggested by Old Tom, that the club realized that they hadn't gone far enough.

Heck, I can even picture the cursing over a good port in a smoke-filled room at the club about these young players hitting the ball so very far as a result of this new golf ball...

I believe all of the above is an example of "revisionist historical interpretation!"  ;D