Oh Knowledgeable treehouse: teach me

[Bart Bradley]

Ok guys, this might be a dumb question...but..


Often on this website, people praise a course by saying that there are "wonderful INTERNAL contours" to (insert great course)'s greens.

What is the difference between INTERNAL contours and just plain old contours?  Does it matter?

Ok, I'm going to bed but when I get up, I hope (expect) that I will get quite an education.

Thanks in advance,

Bart

[TEPaul]

Bart:

I don't think I've ever asked for a definition but when I use the term "internal contours" I just mean the contours inside the periphery of greenspace.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart:

I don't think I've ever asked for a definition but when I use the term "internal contours" I just mean the contours inside the periphery of greenspace.

So Tom, this begs the question:  why don't you just say "wonderful green contours" or "a wonderfully contoured green"....searching GCA (even with our barely functioning search function for "internal contours" gets nine pages of hits where people have used the phrase.  Why is everyone using internal if its superfluous?  Please help.

Bart

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I've always considered internal contours to be shaping other than the general contour of the green i.e. back to front,ect.  Oakmont could be the ultimate for internal contours.

[Michael Dugger]

I always took it to mean this......

Some courses have round or oval greens which are tilted, but usually the tilt is in a predominant direction; this is done to shed the water......

A round green which is pitched from back to front, for example, has tilt, but no internal contours.

In the same vein, a round green with little overall change in elevation could have internal contours.  A green like this would not require a predominant tilt in order to drain properly, because the internal contours could be sculpted to collect water in the form of catch basins surrounding the greens.

We've all seen these, your ball usually comes to rest upon a grate when it bounds to the bottom of a greenside hollow.

My two cents.......take it or more than likely leave it!!!

[Tim Bert]

Bart,

I'll probably wake up to find out I'm wrong.

I take it to mean the contours of the putting surface itself, as opposed to the contours surrounding the greens.  It isn't uncommon to see greens with lots of humps and bumps surrounding the green, which might impact pitches or chips, but then to have the greens themselves be relatively flat.  I view the phrase as meaning there is a lot of movement in the greens.

"Internal Contours"


"Contours, but not Internal"

[Adam Clayman]

The Infernal contours, posted above, place a huge premium on well a placed approach shot. That's what's wonderful.
The external "old" contours, not so much.

The Chicago School of mounding

[Michael Dugger]

My distinction is there is a difference between a green and a "greens complex."

I believe contour, in the form of peaks and valleys, humps and hollows, mounds and catch basins exists everywhere on a golf course.  Both a green and a "greens complex" itself can and usually does have contour.  

What this comes down to is "what do you consider the green?"

I consider the green to reside inside the first cut, or the 'fringe.' which means a lot of humps and hollows exist in both the green area itself and the surrounds too.

"Internal contours" means the green is not a flat plane tilted in one direction or another.....is another way of putting it.

    

[Tim Bert]

Michael - I'm not sure we're disagreeing.  I certainly think you can have plenty of internal contour and also have a well contoured surrounding area.  I was trying to make the distinction that internal referred to the actual putting surface itself.  Are we really saying something all that different?

[Michael Dugger]

I didn't exactly mean that.....

We are saying the same thing.  My bad, got ahead of myself....

it's poor gca conduct.  Five minutes in the penalty box!!!

[Sean_A]

Ok guys, this might be a dumb question...but..


Often on this website, people praise a course by saying that there are "wonderful INTERNAL contours" to (insert great course)'s greens.

What is the difference between INTERNAL contours and just plain old contours?  Does it matter?

Ok, I'm going to bed but when I get up, I hope (expect) that I will get quite an education.

Thanks in advance,

Bart

Bart

I am with you.  The adjective isn't necessary.  There are contours and slope. 

Perhaps people are trying to distinguish the origin of the contours.  Did they flow from the surrounds (or possibly COULD they have flowed from the surrounds) or are they simply built into the green for added interest? 

This pic below may be a good example of the difference.  It looks to me that the contours on the green could have been part of the general lay of the land.  I am not saying they weren't enhanced or even completely created, but they look as they they belong - it makes sense. 


There are some self contained internal contours which just appear from nowhere on some courses.  Sometimes its pretty cool and sometimes it just gets old - especially when the contours of the green fight against what the surrounding contours and slopes.  It makes trying to read a shot pointless because there isn't anything to read - you just have to learn by experience. 

Ciao