Piping Rock's 13th once had something of a runway/ramp runup.

[TEPaul]

This little hole was fun and always memorable to me, plus it was pretty unique. You need to hit some kind of tee shot to a fairway that you can't see very well and it can be dangerous because the back driveway is just to the left all along and if you go right it's not good.

The play was to go pretty far down the fairway to get to the flat with just a little flip wedge to the really raised up green right in front of you with death behind and pretty much to the left and right too. There's a very shallow raised tier on the back of the green.

In the same article where The Creek's George Holland just found the answer to whether or not Macdonald's original Biarritz had green space on the front section before the swale, there's a photo of this hole ("Knoll") just when the course opened in 1913 and there is a clear fairway ramp running right up into the middle of the green.

Emmet described the hole as unique to him and he mentioned one could pitch the ball to the green or run it up, albeit being very careful to get the "weight" right.

I've known that hole for over fifty years and you sure never could run the ball up as long as I've been aware of the hole.

I wonder when it was changed and who did it. I wonder if Piping Rock or anyone there is even aware of this since I doubt anyone there knows they once had greenspace on the front section of their Biarritz. It's pretty clear to me that this particular article has not been seen or considered in many, many decades, perhaps even more than any of us have been alive.

I wonder if they might consider restoring that cool little ramp run-up into the middle of the 13th. For the really long player that may even create a tempting albeit really high risk option of driving that green, something which is impossible now the way it is in front. And for the rest there would be a runup second shot option, even if an apparently tricky one, where the way it is now, there is only one approach option---a pitch, and a pretty precise one at that!

I'm not against one dimensional shot testing demand---eg to require an aerial pitch, but this article has really surprised me because I always thought the way the hole is now is the way Macdonald originally designed it----but apparently not.

[ChipOat]

Tom,

I was as surprised as you that #13 at PRC once offered a run-up option given how steep the upslope is and how small the (two tiered) putting surface is.

Upon reflection, it actually seems reasonable because:

1) With no watering system, "firm and fast" was really "hard and fast" all the time except after a heavy rain.

2) The pre-1931 1.62" ball was much more suited to the ground game than the 1.68" ball we use today - even the original Top-Flite didn't have the same pitch and run characteristics.

As a diluted analogy, consider #18 at Merion.  Having had some experience with the old "British ball" on waterless links in the 1980's, I can say with some authority that the run-up shot to that green is much harder today than when the ground was (permanently) harder and the ball was smaller.

Any pictures of the original #13 at PRC in the article that George Holland found?

[TEPaul]

"Any pictures of the original #13 at PRC in the article that George Holland found?"

Chip:

Yes there is. There're a lot of great pictures of Piping Rock in 1913 in that article and pretty much a hole by hole analysis and review by Emmet. I don't know how to post those things though, so maybe I can get someone else to do it or just tell you where to go to find the article.

It looks like the USGA has just digitized a whole bunch of the old "Golf" magazines which was the precursor to Golf Illustrated. Guess who was the editor of both? 


The winter is coming, Chip, and it seems like the Philadelphia and New York golf architecture research moles and ferrets are really going to work as the cooler weather begins to set in!

I believe Wayne Morrison found Raynor's lost routing of Cypress Point yesterday but, alas, he's been put out the back door and in a corner with a dunce hat on for a time for apparently fightin' and fussin' too much with some total self-promoting wiseacre who was making continuous scatalogical cracks about him in the GCA classroom and GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is therefore not about to benefit from young Morrison's immaculate research.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Chipoat,

What we have to remember is that many of the great old courses were built before the advent of the Sand Wedge, thus shorter shots, to dried out elevated, small greens were very difficult, especially on sites where wind could be a factor.

Thus, it doesn't surprise me that a ladies aid or approach ramp was an integral feature to a volcano like green.

While # 13 is a short hole, that ramp would only reward the more accurate drives.

Think of it as the pseudo ramp to the right of many Redan's.

It has a limited use for only the optimally executed shots.

TEPaul,

Has Wayno really found Raynor's routing of CPC ?

If so, where did he find it ?

[SPDB]

The photo TEPaul described is below. I wonder if this photo is taken from a spot other than the fairway. The hole below bears little resemblance to what is there today. The sides of the green rise up creating a sort of saddle effect to the green, which is not evident in today's green. Also, the bunker which sits at the front of the green is absent.

[TEPaul]

That photo was taken from right around where the fairway on #13 begins.

One of the reasons The Creek's George Holland may've run across this article so quickly is because in the last year or so he's been diligently searching to locate the entire portfolio of the photographer (Edwin Levick) who took the photos in this article and apparently far more. He believes this particular photographer's career porfolio can lead to some amazing informational dividends on the architecture on some of these old courses, particularly around New York.

Care to supply any information to help in the search?