Help settle an important design issue

[Tony Ristola]

Which is better?
Any questions about the possibilities… I’ll answer.
Please reply ASAP.

There is a chunk of land. It can fit a par-4, or par-3.
9th Hole.

The land: It is a forced carry over a gorge of some 7 meters in depth (20 feet).
As a par-4: Length 300 meters (330 yards).

As a par-4
1.   You have 230 meters to the edge of the canyon from the tee.
2.   The layup area is between trees. A target of 26 meters wide, by 36 deep (to the very edge). There is a sentinel pine to the right of this clearing.
3.   There is a tree in the 26 by 36 meter landing area.
4.   Short of the target landing area, is a big hollow which will direct the ball left. To the right it’s pretty flat, then a hillside, then OB.
5.   Miss left and you are punching the ball back into play. Miss right and you should be OK; you may have to loft it over the mature pine. Too long, as in missing the 26 x 36 target area and you are most likely punching the ball back into play.
6.   You cannot see the gorge unless you hit you tee shot right up towards the edge of it.
7.   They play Stableford in Europe, and if they rack up a huge number, the ball goes into the pocket. You have the other 17-holes to score points on.

As a par-3:

1.   The ball is on a tee. Perfect lie.
2.   The distance is known. From the member’s tee it can be as short as 120 meters. 105 to carry the Gorge. From the back… it doesn’t matter, but just FYI, it’s 150m (165 yards).
3.   The gorge is visible.
4.   The ladies could play the hole as short as 60 meters (70 yards); 45 to carry the Gorge.
5.   The walk from the 8th green to this tee is about 165 meters. About 1 minute 50 seconds.


Par-4 Tee shot.


From behind the lay-up area and clearing.


Short of the 36 by 26 clearing.


From the right side of the fairway short of the clearing.


View across the 36 by 26 clearing.


View from the end of the fairway and the view from the Forward-Ladies Tee.


View from the Par-3 Tee.


Close up photo.

[Chip Gaskins]

sounds like a much better par 4 to me.  i love short par 4s.

are you planning on leaving the lone tree on the right side of the fairway being it looks very tall and skinny allowing the golfer to play around it.  (then again it might be a little weird if were actually in the short grass)

with a forward tee box it sounds like the green could even be reached which could make if really fun.  otherwise hybrid club and wedge.

[Jeff_Brauer]

First blush:Take out the lone pine and make it a par 4......

[Jerry Kluger]

I agree with Jeff, par 4 and take out the tree.  I might consider using some of that scruffy looking rough as the hazard if the player fails to make it to the green.

[Tony Ristola]

I agree about the tree.
There are 4 short 4's.

[Matt MacIver]

There are 4 short 4's.

Are they "easy" short par 4 or "hard"?  Maybe the length will induce those to go for it, while the tree will make it play harder?  Do you have any other means to make the hard look easy and play hard - perhaps a fall-away green front-to-back?

[Tony Ristola]

If you can fly it 300 yards, actually 310, then you can go for it.
There is a gorge running in front of the green. 20 feet deep. Your lie? Sand, rough, scrubby (roulette).
The gorge starts at the 250 yard mark or so.
So 90% of the golfers are forced to hit a "fit" shot. A lay-up.

[Jason Topp]

I like the par 3 better.  The par four involves too many layups short of the gorge - 1 on the tee shot and potentially another if the player is out of position.

If the gorge can be played out of, I would shorten it and make it a par 4 that is potentially driveable.

[Garland Bayley]

I go for the perfect lie.
Bad karma to end a 9 with such a par 4.

[Tony Ristola]

Are they "easy" short par 4 or "hard"?  Maybe the length will induce those to go for it, while the tree will make it play harder?  Do you have any other means to make the hard look easy and play hard - perhaps a fall-away green front-to-back?

There are shorts on 1, 5, (9?), 13 and 16. Only the first would be tame, but then it depends where the flag is on the rolling green. Anywhere along the flanks or back and it has teeth too. The rest have challenge... teeth.

My guess is the ground game (bounce and release) will often be the wise play into these holes. The owner is committed to maintaining for hard and fast and not color. It he could get grass to grow on concrete... he would.

[CJ Carder]

My vote is for the 4.  I don't know why, but I actually like the idea of leaving the pine in there.  And then, if you can somehow position the green to entice a player to play closer to the gorge for a better angle or better use of a slope, all the better.  Maybe too far left somehow blocks out or reduces the angle into the green?

[Tony Ristola]

My vote is for the 4.  I don't know why, but I actually like the idea of leaving the pine in there.  And then, if you can somehow position the green to entice a player to play closer to the gorge for a better angle or better use of a slope, all the better.  Maybe too far left somehow blocks out or reduces the angle into the green?

Left and short of puts you 6 to 7 feet below the 26 by 36 gap. See photo above.
Far left and you're blocked out.
The pine tree is beautiful. That's why it's still there. Will it stay? 
If you lay up right you'll have to skirt the pine or hit a short iron over it.
The green is tight to the edge of the canyon. It's split... lower right. You can work the ball off the spine to the right hole position. (It's been shaped for both holes).
Your choices... to varying degrees and mixes:
1. Go for the 26 by 36 gap.
2. Lay-up right potentially bringing the pine into play.
3. Layup center-left and have a blind approach over the gorge.
3.5 Somewhere between 2 and 3.
4. Left is no option.
5. Fly the gorge.

[Peter Wagner]

Tony,

Since there are already 4 short-ish par-4's I'd go with a long par-3 and leave the tree in the fairway.  Good shots will easilt sail over the tree and the gorge.  Poor shots might have to deal with one or both.

- Peter

[Lou_Duran]

Par 4.  I am assuming that the ravine will be playable with a penalty of less than a full stroke.   Make it so the penalty is more severe if you lay-up but roll in slighlty, and somewhat less so if you go for it, but fall a bit short.

Place a forward tee and design the green so that it can be played as a long par 3 for serious competitions.

[Tony Ristola]

Tony,

Since there are already 4 short-ish par-4's I'd go with a long par-3 and leave the tree in the fairway.  Good shots will easilt sail over the tree and the gorge.  Poor shots might have to deal with one or both.

- Peter

The par-3 in the photo is a different angle. The tees are left of the clump of trees left of the 26 by 36 gap. Building a tee in the par-4 fairway to provide two distinct angles has been discussed, though the bottom of the gorge wouldn't be visible. It isn't visible on most approaches for the par-4.

[Matt Varney]

Tony,

Short par 4 is much better to close the 9th hole than a par 3.  Based on the pictures the ravine is really nice and I would leave the pine in the fairway area.  It adds to the mystique of the hole.  I would create a green complex that gives you two routes to the hole.  

1. Pull your driver and take a direct line threading the needle between the lone pine and the trees on the left (the fairway would look like a sliver but, these are the shots golfers love)

2. Pull a hybrid or iron and lay up right of the lone pine and have to play a short delicate wedge approach over a bunkers or a waste area of native grasses.

The reason I like the par 4 is that the walk from #8 green just seems to long and having #9 tee closer to #8 green just feels more natural.  The land you have looks like it is rolling and easy to walk so the shorter walk will be very nice.  I would have maybe 5 tee boxes allowing the angle to fairway and green change regularly so you can shake it up for tournaments and different days on the weekends.  Looks like a great golf hole in the making!

[Tony Ristola]

Par 4.  I am assuming that the ravine will be playable with a penalty of less than a full stroke.   Make it so the penalty is more severe if you lay-up but roll in slighlty, and somewhat less so if you go for it, but fall a bit short.

Place a forward tee and design the green so that it can be played as a long par 3 for serious competitions.

The ravine has steep banks. You'll be able to recover from the greenside bank (my job to make it so), but I don't think recovery is possible from the fairway side... and we won't be grading it. The gorge is 20 feet deep. A mix of sand, and light rough. For depth think left of the 16th green at PGA West.

[Tony Ristola]

Look forward to the replies... see you in several hours.

[TEPaul]

Tony:

I'm not exactly sure why but whenever I ran into a decision with something like you've described there, as I understand it, my instinct has always told to me to go with a par 3. I think the reason why might be because a par 3 seems to maximize that neat feature more.

But how about what comes before the choice and after it? How is that affected by either choice?

[Mike McGuire]

Build both of them and evaluate after some play.

[Garland Bayley]

Look forward to the replies... see you in several hours.

I would remind you that the replies you get here are not from the average golfer.

Regards,

The average golfer

[RJ_Daley]

I'm in the loose the tree camp, make it a short par 4, and replace the tree with  bunker incorporated with as moderate of a turfed area in the ravine as as practically possible. 

Forgive me if I didn't catch it, but did you describe if there is another 180-200 yards backwards from the tee to make a short par 5, with a go, no-go LZ, sans tree? 

The tree is only there until the next lightening bold, disease or wind allows it.  If you build a strategy around it, it is not a long term wise decision, IMHO.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The tree is only there until the next lightening bold, disease or wind allows it.  If you build a strategy around it, it is not a long term wise decision, IMHO.

Yes, but the bunker is only there until about the 3rd Green Committee Chairperson.
 

[Chip Gaskins]

with a forward tee and a 280-310 yard carry AND a penalty of only a half of a shot from the ravine i am trying to drive it on the green in any condition but a direct headwind. 

i can't carry the ball that far of course, but with only a half shot penalty form the long grass in the ravine i will take my chances from 50 yards.

i usually lose my gamble, but that is what makes short par 4s so much fun.

[Matt Varney]

I like Chips suggestion about making it a driveable par 4.  I also really like the idea of creaitng the par 3 as well so that it could be a push (19th) hole for tournaments.  If you make the middle tee somewhere around 275 from the white tees I would guess that 90% of the players would go for the green from the tee.

Replacing a tree is no big deal if this one lone pine dies.  I have a friend that does it all the time for private and resort courses.  When a 40' gets nailed by lightning he removes the old one and replaces it with a new one 40' tall only prettier in shape. 

Short par 4's are some of the best holes you can have on a golf course so have a collection of a couple of them will make your course really fun to play.