[Mike Golden]

Can there be another sport where there is such a dichotomy between beliefs as with golfers?

While some of it can most likely be age-related, it seems to me that it is more geographic than anything else.  In the UK and Australia (and possibly South Africa, I just don't know anything about golf there) the long standing traditions of the game have been upheld throughout the 20th and now 21st century while in the US the game of golf more and more resembles something completely different.  That difference troubles me and leads me to believe that by the time my days of golf are over I probably won't even recognize the game.

There is now an entire generation of US 'golfers' (and more to come) that think of golf as a game to be played in a cart, drinking beer, complaining if the greens are less than 12 on the stimpmeter (of course they don't know how a stimp measures speed), with 5 hour rounds as the norm and playing from the tips as the heroic thing to do whether they can hit the ball in the fairway consistently or not.  And of course that the bet is more important than the game, just read some of the comments in the 'what's your handicap' thread.

I used to play lots of tennis in the 80's and 90's and while the equipment (as in golf) has changed the game to where I am no longer interested (nor could I sustain the level of play of my younger days)  there is still the same basic game-the court, rules, sportsmanship, etc hasn't changed at all.

Why has golf changed so much, at least in the US, in what seems like such a short period of time and will there still be a place for 'traditionalists' like so many of us  within this game in the coming years?

[TEPaul]

"Why has golf changed so much, at least in the US, in what seems like such a short period of time and will there still be a place for 'traditionalists' like so many of us  within this game in the coming years?"


Of course there will be a place in American golf for "traditionalists" such as us. I notice it picking up some speed in the last decade or so and its increasing. We will never be the largest slice of the pie of what American golfers want, but I don't think that matters and frankly it's never been that way, and probably for over a century.

I think one of the most significant remarks ever made in that vein came from incoming USGA president Robertson in his speech as he was inducted as the second president of the USGA in 1901.

I also believe his remark in that speech (which is below) was the very thing that essentially drove a stake right through C.B. Macdonald's heart and he very much said so in his book:

Robertson said:

"I know that we are grateful for what England and Scotland have done for us in exporting this game for our delectation and amusement; but I think we should guard against being too much restricted and held down by precedent and tradition. I fear that is the fault of the game on the other side. Do not let us be afraid of innovations simply because they are innovations. Nothing can come to America and stay very long without being Americanized in character; and I hope this game will be no exception to this rule. I should like to see American golf."


To me there is not much better than that remark of Robertson's to explain and evoke the very thing I sometimes call America's true ETHOS of a form of "Manifest Destiny." In other words, our unique ethos that way is we feel some almost God given right to both conquer and of course change or even destroy, even some of the things that we feel are so beautiful unaltered. In many countries "Traditions" are honored, even glorified---in this country "change" is honored to the extent it is almost our middle name and I believe our Nation's history proves that in all kinds of ways!

I think this has created in the American ethos or spirit something of a real dynamic and duality; and it's why we love the feeling of our potential power while at the same time regretting so fast some of the things we do as a nation. I think this is what has led us to be remarkably self-critical.

The way we have done this with golf is no different and it is why there always will be a place in the game for "traditionists" such as us.

For Macdonald's part, again, I think this at first horrified him about golf in America and probably truly saddened him for the rest of his life. On the other hand, it appears that Macdonald did come to understand over time that there really wasn't a damn thing even he could do about it with golf over here because he did appreciate that Americans really are remarkably innovative people---that's just their spirit, their ethos, their way of doing almost all things, whether it be good, bad or ugly.

[Chris Garrett]

Mike,

What you describe is not limited to golf.  The problems/concerns which you express are a product of American society through and through.  Americans are consumed by "I" (How do I benefit?) and "it" (What is the latest and greatest thing?).  The majority could care less about history or tradition.  After all, innovation is the driving force behind economic growth, and innovation often throws tradition to the wind.

As for your image of American golfers sitting in a cart, drinking beer, talking on their cell phone... again, a product of society.  That's what we do best!  We are a very lazy society, opting for convenience over practicality.  Look no further than the waistlines of this country to solidify that argument.  Golf in the UK is still, by and large, a sporting endeavor.  In the US, golf is something of an escape from reality and a retreat from the hustle and bustle of work and family.  No one is in much of a hurry to get the round over with and head home.

[Mike Golden]

TE and Chris,

Both of you make great points and I appreciate the perspectives presented.

Mike

[Greg Murphy]

I was amazed to read in another thread that virtually everyone carts it at Sand Hills. Talk about dichotomies.

[TEPaul]

"I was amazed to read in another thread that virtually everyone carts it at Sand Hills. Talk about dichotomies."

Greg:

Perhaps one of the reasons for that is the golf course is awful far from the clubhouse. That is not a walk I'd want to make every time playing there so the carts just end up there at the course I guess. Plus, I don't remember seeing any caddies out there. There's not much going on anywhere around that golf course I could see; it's pretty much out in the middle of nowhere.

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Golden,

I had the pleasure of joining a couple of GCAers this past Sunday for a rare round of golf at a very busy muni (two hour wait to get off, nearly a five hour round) and we had such a discussion.  If public golf is the heart and soul of the game in America as past USGA presidents Tatum and Spaeth opined, I just don't get it.  And if public golf is all I can look forward to in the future, I'll be learning to mall-walk for exercise and to play chess for mental stimulation.

TEPaul,

Great post.  A friction in our society (and golf) is the innate desire for stability in a world that can't and won't stand still.  Things change all the time.  Our economy since Day 1 has been very dynamic.  Creative destruction has been the most constant force from the days of the buggy whip to the Model T to today's hybrids and tomorrow's hydrogen technologies (from featheries to the gutta percha to the rubber ball to the ProV).

I read a blurp in the paper about a survey which asked French students what they saw themselves doing after finishing their education.  Some 70% responded that they aspired to a government job.  A similar but independent survey of American students found that nearly 70% wanted to start their own business.

There is clearly a difference in the way Americans view the world vis-a-vis Europe.  I have no doubt that this is reflected in our approach to golf.  Fortunately for all of us, golf in the U.S. is a big world.  There are places, mostly private clubs, where the early traditions are revered and observed.  And even at public courses, one can associate with like-minded folks, play early, and largely insulate himself from those considered unsavory.

Chris Garrett,

Such self-loathing!  Your characterization of American golfers and society by extension is grossly unfair.  If we are a lazy society as you declare, what does that make Europe's (for a good proxy of "laziness" you may wish to google work hours and productivity for the U.S. and the EEU).  As for your example to "solidify" your argument, I suppose that sub-Saharan Africa must be the model of an industrious, productive region.  Certainly no problems there with cholesterol, Type II diabetes, and those noisy cell phones.  As to escaping from the family, please!  Most of us who have experienced the responsiblity of raising a family made many compromises to play golf.  As any number of GCAers will tell you, lingering on the course is/was never option. 

[Tom Huckaby]

"I was amazed to read in another thread that virtually everyone carts it at Sand Hills. Talk about dichotomies."

Greg:

Perhaps one of the reasons for that is the golf course is awful far from the clubhouse. That is not a walk I'd want to make every time playing there so the carts just end up there at the course I guess. Plus, I don't remember seeing any caddies out there. There's not much going on anywhere around that golf course I could see; it's pretty much out in the middle of nowhere.

Now let's wait just a minute here.

Of course others can confirm re how Sand Hills is NOW - it's been a few years since I've been there - but what was reported here was that on a VERY HOT DAY, it was mostly people in carts.  That shows sensibility to me, not any dichotomy of golf!  And while TEP is correct that one and all take a cart to get from the lodging and restaurant out to where the course is - it would be VERY silly not to do so, it's a pretty long way - my experience does remain that most carts are left there for the trip back, and there is plenty of walking.  There are also caddies available pretty much at any time - TEP you likely didn't see them because you hardly played while you were there!

So let's get these misconceptions out of the way.  Sand Hills is no example of any dichotomy of golf.  Not that I know of anyway.

TH

[TEPaul]

Lou:

Some stuff I didn't expect in that response to me. Hmmm. I'm interested in hearing more though. Please elaborate if you feel you should. Despite the way America is and even American golf would you not admit, though, that golf even in America probably holds on to more tradition than any other major game we know here in America?

My feeling and my message is it will continue to do that even if the slice in the pie is small. It also makes me realize, and maybe for the first time, that if golf in America really does completely lose the old traditional things about it, like the sportsmanship when golf's at it best that way, Ill be done with it, all of which makes me realize what it probably is for me about the game I love the most.

[Peter Pallotta]

TE, Lou -

Long before Joseph Campbell became widely-famous for his works on mythology and religion, he wrote an essay (in the mind 1960s, I think) about the American ethos. I have been trying to find it again for years since I first read it, and haven't been able to. But basically, he argued that the 60s style thinking that mocked the US for its seemingly mindless "creative destruction" and its obessession with a steadily growing economy was missing the point entirely. Campbell believed that it was America's deeply embedded value-system that put freedom (individual freedom, creative freedom, religious freedom) above everything else that allowed it to keep everything else in  proper perspective. In other words, Campbell argued that America understood better than any other country in the world that the only thing an economy was good for was to produce stuff, and more and more of it all the time, and to tear down the old and build up the new etc, etc. Why? Because that's the way the country and the economy helped the most number of people to have jobs and places to live and food to eat and all the other basic essentials of life SO THAT they'd also have -- if they chose -- the freedom to pursue the matters of the spirit, the heart and the soul. 

I think it was in another essay around the same time that Campbell also praised the American space programme (that some were criticizing after President Kennedy's death). He said that the billions of dollars spent getting a man to the moon (a dead pile of rocks in the critic's eyes) was worth it because it led, in the words of an Italian poet of the time, to "A night like no other night in the history of the world", i.e. the first time that man was able to look at his world from the perspective of a god, and the enormous expansion of human consciousness that came with that.

I'm sure I'm not explaining myself or Mr. Campbell very well, but your exchange reminded me of it.  America seems to have decided a long time ago that it would have million dollar golf courses lined with million dollar homes and filled with drunken cart-riders so that it could ALSO have 100 year old walking-only courses where a man might play 9 holes alone in the gentle twilight hours if he wanted to. 

I do more than my share of complaining around here, but that seems like a pretty good deal all around.

Peter     

[Mike Golden]

Mike Golden,

I had the pleasure of joining a couple of GCAers this past Sunday for a rare round of golf at a very busy muni (two hour wait to get off, nearly a five hour round) and we had such a discussion.  If public golf is the heart and soul of the game in America as past USGA presidents Tatum and Spaeth opined, I just don't get it.  And if public golf is all I can look forward to in the future, I'll be learning to mall-walk for exercise and to play chess for mental stimulation.

Lou, I feel your pain.  Even though I played most of my golf on muni courses from the 60's through the 80's every time I play a public course now is virtual torture.  I just can't deal with the slow play, lack of golf etiquette, yadda, yadda, yadda.  I had a really good time playing World Woods with John Cullum a few weeks ago that would have been incredible had it not been for the other two morons in our foursome thinking it was OK to start their golf cart while I was in the middle of back swing or stand 3' directly behind the hole while I was putting.  I recognize this is my problem for not being able to block that bs out but I just wonder how people like that ever made it on to a golf course

Peter, that's a really interesting thought and one I can live with, thanks.

Mike

[Lou_Duran]

TEPaul,

You'll have to point out what it is you would like for me to elaborate on.

I fully agree that for those who play the game with some seriousness, we do hold on to the traditions, courtesies, etiquette, etc.  As I noted in another thread (the one where David M. took exception to my comments regarding Geoff Shack.), I think there is a human tendency to look at the past romantically and at the future with some apprehension and suspicion.  I doubt that the golfers new to the game in eras past were better in terms of their behavior and knowledge than they are today, though societal inhibitions and customs of those times (not as many folks probably felt as free to let their freak flags fly) may have made them less obnoxious.

In my opinion, the gentility of the game, its sportsmanship, its fine traditions will never die.  Golf may not grow like some in the industry may wish, but there will continue to be considerable pockets where it retains those qualities which make it not just a special game or sport, but a lifestyle for many of its devotees.

Golf in the U.S. will never be as popular as baseball, football, and basketball.  Its roots here were different than in Scotland and the UK.  Not only do we not have affordable land within the large population centers, the U.S. is a much more diverse country and becoming more so each day.  Moving forward, there are also some interesting demographic factors coming into play.  I don't believe it is reasonable to expect popular interest in the game nor would I measure golf's success accordingly.

Peter P.,

I've encountered similar sentiments stated a bit differently.  Having lived elsewhere and travelled widely, a beauty of this country is that it allows people with widely divergent beliefs to largely do their thing.  It ain't perfect, but what is?  I will see if I can locate the essay you were referring to.   A different perspective is always welcomed.  Thanks for the reference.

Mike Golden,

My pain is self-created and I can do something about it.  Right now, golf does not appear to be important enough to me to take serious action.  You suggested one strategy earlier- joining a men's club at the local muni- and I am thinking about it.  Until I can get my head right about sticking around, joining a private club just does not make sense.   

[Mike Golden]

TEPaul,

Mike Golden,

My pain is self-created and I can do something about it.  Right now, golf does not appear to be important enough to me to take serious action.  You suggested one strategy earlier- joining a men's club at the local muni- and I am thinking about it.  Until I can get my head right about sticking around, joining a private club just does not make sense.   

Lou, you should really join the Costa Mesa Men's club and get into their weekend games.  It's a good group of guys, some very good players, with preferred early morning tee times on both Saturdays and Sundays.  Rounds on Los Lagos take about 4 1/2 hours, Mesa Linda (which is shorter but lots of fun) a little under 4.  I regret not staying in the club when I chose to move from Irvine to Long Beach, I should have just stayed in Irvine and kept playing there because Rec Park, although a terrific golf course, doesn't have the same quality of playing partners.

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