[Thomas MacWood]

I recently discovered that Herbert Fowler consulted JH Taylor when he was laying out Walton Heath. During one of Sutherland redesign efforts at Dornoch he consulted Taylor. Taylor worked with Hutchinson at Le Touquet and Harewood Downs. Mid Surrey maybe looked upon today as a wacky experiment, but in its day it was considered revolutionary, and no doubt did show what was possible. At the turn of the century Taylor was the most sought after golf architect in Britain, taking that mantle from Tom Dunn, and then seem to reinvent himself in the 1920s with Fred Hawtree (with mixed success it appears).

Is Taylor underrated historically?

[Willie_Dow]

Tom:

Great to hear from you, once again!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nancy Jupp wrote in "Golf World" 1989 that "Taylor did say that he was the first professional to implement the overlapping grip, but Vardon was the man who publicized it and received the credit.

J. H. Taylor was a true gentleman.  He was not trying to demean Vardon, in any way, he was merely stating a fact for the record."

This came from Tulsa, Okla., where is Nancy these days ?

[TEPaul]

I have very little idea in what particular regard J.H. Taylor's ideas on architecture was held abroad at any particular time but thankfully we do have a pretty good amount of written comment on how Taylor's ideas on architecture over here were viewed by some of the American architects. Thankfully A.W. Tillinghast left us with a fairly comprehensive article or so about his feelings of Taylor's ideas on architecture.

I think Tillinghast's article on Taylor is interesting not just because he criticized him and some of his ideas but because it shows quite clearly the direction Tillinghast thought American architecture was beginning to go in comparison to some of Taylor's ideas on architecture or some of the ideas on architecture on the other side.

Essentially Tillinghast said the time had come when American architects no longer felt the need to sit at the knee of some of their previous mentors abroad and that in his opinion some American architects had gotten to the point where their ideas and work were better than abroad.

As an historically interesting point Tillinghast mentioned that because England had been in WW1 for three years (from 1914) and the USA hadn't (until 1917) that actually gave American architects a headstart.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

Taylor was a regular visitor to Dornoch and apparently consulted for free on the changes made by Sutherland in 1904.  These significantly improved the course in the following ways:

--new tee at the 3rd (old one was to the right of the current 17th green)which make the hole what it is today.

--created today's 5th hole.  Built a new 6th hitting from current 6th to today;s 11th green.  Old pictures show some fearosme green side bunkering.

--lenthened what is now the 12th to a true 3-shot hole.

--eliminated what was later restored to be today's 13th

--added 100+ yards to Foxy

--moved 17th tee back 30 yards to current location

--lengthened 18th by 180 yards

--moved what is now the 1st tee on the Struie to a safer position.

All this completely anti-Haskellized the course, adding 720 yards, and making it "the best in Scotland" according to Vardon, who played in an exhibition match with Braid and Taylor in 1906.

I think we need to know more about Taylor.

Rich

[BCrosby]

Tom MacW -

Taylor was a very important figure. At the turn of the century his was an important voice in gca. He did a fair amount of writing and was one of the first to actually articulate a theory of golf design rather than just provide views about specific holes.

He thought Mid-Surrey exemplified many of his theories and his hope was that it would change the direction of gca. In some respects he was a paleo advocate for penal design.

After Jones won the Open at TOC in '27 with a subpar score that shocked everyone, Taylor (along with Crane) wanted to see TOC upgraded. Which, of course, the stategic architects thought was an appalling idea.

Interesting guy. A more important figure in the history of gca than is generally thought. 

Bob

[David Stamm]

At the turn of the century Taylor was the most sought after golf architect in Britain, taking that mantle from Tom Dunn, and then seem to reinvent himself in the 1920s with Fred Hawtree (with mixed success it appears).

 

Not to take this off subject, but I find it interesting how Tom Dunn was viewed just a few years later by designers such as MacKenzie. If I recall, he looked upon his work the same way as he did Cranes rating system. In other words, he wasn't a big fan to say the least.

[Willie_Dow]

Looking at the chapter on Lengthening the Courses in "Taylor on Golf" I liked his opinion that "hazards cannot really be correctly described as entirely fair in their character.  In many instances holes are badly placed, and the best players are very frequently trapped, even after they have played a good stroke.

Basically, he says that a hazard should catch and punish a player who, after playing a bad or a faulty stroke, deserves to meet such a fate."

Logical ?

[Thomas MacWood]

The title of Taylor's article in 1917 that Tillinghast responded to was 'Modern Courses Too Severe'. Tilly took exception to Taylor's warning that golf architects must be careful not to make courses too difficult. Tilly over-reacted IMO. Taylor was one of the most prolific writers on golf architecture. I'm not sure I'd desrbie his architectural philosophy as penal.

Other than Royal Mid Surrey, Queens Park Bournemouth was probably his most important early design ~ a high budget project that was very well recieved. Some other early courses: Mid Surrey, Puerta de Hierro, Came Down, Seaford, Harewood Downs, Le Touquet, South Wilts, Purley Downs, Dornoch, Piltdown, St. Jean de Luz, Lake Como and Cairo. Taylor got around ~ France, Italy, Spain & Egypt. He went to the US, in 1900, I believe. Favorite courses from that trip in order: Chicago, Seabright, Morris County, Myopia.

[Thomas MacWood]

Looking at the chapter on Lengthening the Courses in "Taylor on Golf" I liked his opinion that "hazards cannot really be correctly described as entirely fair in their character.  In many instances holes are badly placed, and the best players are very frequently trapped, even after they have played a good stroke.

Basically, he says that a hazard should catch and punish a player who, after playing a bad or a faulty stroke, deserves to meet such a fate."

Logical ?

Willie
That was pretty much the standard thinking at the time. I believe 'Taylor on Golf' was published in 1902. The following year John Low said pretty much the same thing in his book, and he is considered one of the forefathers of strategic thinking. In fact in 1903 or 1904 Low was the person behind the rebunkering of the Old Course, when they planted bunkers on the flanks where the whins had been.

[Tommy Williamsen]

From the Royal North Devon clubhouse.  They still have his locker with his name on it.  He was born in Northam and died there overlooking RND, what he called the "grandest sight in golf."  In the clubhouse RND has a museum and JH is a big part of it.

From the RND website

Many of the great players of the last 100 years were regular competitors at R.N.D. but the greatest of them all is without doubt John Henry Taylor. Born in the village of Northam overlooking the course, he started his long association with the club as a caddie boy and soon became an accomplished player. As every golf lover will know he went on to form one third of the great triumvirate, winning five Open Championships. Alongside Harry Vardon and James Braid, JH Taylor dominated the game for 30 years. The club honoured Taylor with a presidency in 1957 and his portrait and some of the clubs which he used to win his Open titles are proudly displayed in the clubhouse.

[Sean_A]

Looking at the chapter on Lengthening the Courses in "Taylor on Golf" I liked his opinion that "hazards cannot really be correctly described as entirely fair in their character.  In many instances holes are badly placed, and the best players are very frequently trapped, even after they have played a good stroke.

Basically, he says that a hazard should catch and punish a player who, after playing a bad or a faulty stroke, deserves to meet such a fate."

Logical ?

Willie
That was pretty much the standard thinking at the time. I believe 'Taylor on Golf' was published in 1902. The following year John Low said pretty much the same thing in his book, and he is considered one of the forefathers of strategic thinking. In fact in 1903 or 1904 Low was the person behind the rebunkering of the Old Course, when they planted bunkers on the flanks where the whins had been.

Tommy Mac

I agree.  I think the concept of a bad shot to be punished is somehow different from what we now think of this idea.  There were plenty of centreline hazards back in the day.  Perhaps these guys were often refering to topped shots rather than ugly wide shots (which is what I think we today normally think of as a bad shot).  It would seem the pros back in the day still topped shots even off the tee.  I sometimes read about it in accounts of matches. 

I know Braid is often given a bad rap for penal bunkering, but it is very rarely the case where I see a Braid course with bunkering left and right or indeed one with all that many bunkers.  Perhaps he got this rep from his work at Carnasty - I don't know.

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

Did he write anything about the formation of Hawtree & Taylor?  They certainly seemed to monopolise municipal golf jobs in the 30s.  I read somewhere this was particularly so in Birmingham, but I can't think of which courses it refers to. 

I wrote this great course up as a Braid the current owners of the franchise now seem to think that it is Taylor - it would make sense as it was for the London County Council.  I still believe the similarities to features of the Old Course are no co-incidence.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=27344

Also, played Queens Park recently and it's well worth it if you're in the area.  Redone by Braid in the 1930's it has hosted a number of Pro tournaments as recently as Seve's time.  A few holes on the first 9 have been chopped because of new roads, but even as a 6200 yards it remains fun.  The early part is like the Addington where the really hilly bits seem to occur between the shots and then it finishes between Pines in more gentle country- could be near Woking.  A bargain too.

[Thomas MacWood]

I don't think I have any articles discussing the formation of Hawrtee & Taylor. It is inetesting that it is H & T and not T & H.

In a 1925 advertsement they listed these designs/redesigns, in order: Richmond Park 'Princes' and 'Duke' courses, Highwood (Bexhill), Chigwell, Rochford Hundred, Boyce Hill (Benfleet), Hull, Swinton Park (Manchester), Birmingham Municipal, Knowle (Bristol), Herne Bay, Bognor, Denham, Sonning, St.Leonards-on-Sea Hastings, West Middlesex, Royal Musselburgh, Williamwood (Glasgow), Littlehampton, Mid-Surrey Ladies, Chiselhurst, All-Weather Golf Practice (Kennsighton), Royal Porthcawl.

Didn't Colt redesign QP Bournemouth in the 1920s? I recall Paul T posting an article on that a few years back.

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