[Tom_Doak]

http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-no-6-with-tom-doak/


In this GCA interview from a few years ago, TD lists Kankakee Elks as a course he would most like to restore. 

Indeed he did. As a relative new member I wasn't aware of that.  I doubt they could afford TD, much less the renovation, although I would be interested to hear what Tom or other architects on this site feel about the present state of this course.  What is needed to be restored?  Cost?

Knowing the course is owned by the Kankakee Elks Lodge non-profit and the area of Kankakee isn't exactly booming like it was in the 50-70's.  Love to see even a consultation given, if only online.

Jeff:


My associate Brian Schneider visited the course a few years ago, and suggested I go there.  He's the unofficial vice president of the Langford Appreciation Society, so he should probably do the work if they could afford to do it.


The two things Kankakee Elks needs most are drainage, and tree removal, which would help the drainage somewhat.  There are holes where half the original fairway is now treed.  But drainage and tree removal are relatively costly, drainage is not that sexy, and tree removal is often politically controversial.


As for what the club could afford, I don't know, but they could certainly afford me.  My advice on the topic was just given for free, and I'm sure Brian would do whatever work was needed for a reasonable price.  There is a limit to how much pro-bono work we can do -- we are about to get busy with new courses again, and Brian has a family to support -- but the idea that we charge a fortune for our consulting advice is ridiculous.  Often we can tell a club most of what it needs to know in a single day, which is a good deal no matter what we charge for that day.  But it adds up if you keep dragging me back to tell you the same thing over and over again 

[Jeff Schley]

http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-no-6-with-tom-doak/


In this GCA interview from a few years ago, TD lists Kankakee Elks as a course he would most like to restore. 

Indeed he did. As a relative new member I wasn't aware of that.  I doubt they could afford TD, much less the renovation, although I would be interested to hear what Tom or other architects on this site feel about the present state of this course.  What is needed to be restored?  Cost?

Knowing the course is owned by the Kankakee Elks Lodge non-profit and the area of Kankakee isn't exactly booming like it was in the 50-70's.  Love to see even a consultation given, if only online.

Jeff:


My associate Brian Schneider visited the course a few years ago, and suggested I go there.  He's the unofficial vice president of the Langford Appreciation Society, so he should probably do the work if they could afford to do it.


The two things Kankakee Elks needs most are drainage, and tree removal, which would help the drainage somewhat.  There are holes where half the original fairway is now treed.  But drainage and tree removal are relatively costly, drainage is not that sexy, and tree removal is often politically controversial.


As for what the club could afford, I don't know, but they could certainly afford me.  My advice on the topic was just given for free, and I'm sure Brian would do whatever work was needed for a reasonable price.  There is a limit to how much pro-bono work we can do -- we are about to get busy with new courses again, and Brian has a family to support -- but the idea that we charge a fortune for our consulting advice is ridiculous.  Often we can tell a club most of what it needs to know in a single day, which is a good deal no matter what we charge for that day.  But it adds up if you keep dragging me back to tell you the same thing over and over again 

;l

Thanks Tom.  This course is significant for me and appreciate the advice.  Perhaps Andrew Buck can communicate with his dad who knows the Superintendent to get something going with your colleague Brian coming out one day.  I have no idea what an esteemed architect would charge, it was simply alluding to how depressed the Kankakee area is. I don't think anyone would expect free, which would be ridiculous as everyone has to make a living, thus my comment on not being able to afford it.  "A fortune" is relative to the area, as the house my grandparents lived in and my mom grew up in can be had for about 45k now, unfortunately. You can play the KE on the weekend for 30 bucks still and a year membership is about 1K, so not huge cash coming in. 

This area hasn't had alot of positive things happen to it in the last 30 plus years, besides the Chicago Bears coming to host their summer training camp in nearby Bourbonnais recently.  Love to see the course get back to what it was originally as much as it could. 

Much appreciated and God Bless.

Andrew maybe we have a project to start the ball rolling?

[Connor Dougherty]

RE: Balboa

I’ve never played it but is the hole on the west end of the property that runs on a hilltop with what looks to be death on both sides as hard as it looks from the air? 

I fly into SAN many times a year and that hole just looks deadly.

That's the 16th. The tee shot probably errs on the side of too difficult and penal, but the fairway is about 40-50 yards wide. Longer hitters have to worry about OB right if they hit driver and it's roughly 270 to cut the corner on the fly, making it really difficult if you're trying to get there in two. Overall, it isn't too bad.

[Andrew Buck]

RE:  Kankakee Elks

Jeff,

I can certainly ask if they have been doing any clearing or wish for more information, however I suspect someone from the Kankakee Elks is already aware of threads like this and will be making the decisions.  The superintendent is a smart guy and a very good player.  I can't believe those involved with the club think it's getting ranked in the top 15 you can play in Illinois simply due to conditioning, so I suspect they have growing awareness of their heritage.  In addition, guys like Brian Schneider and Tom Doak, or even Andy Johnson from the Fried Egg showing up have to provide growing realization of the treasure they have.

Having spent a lot of my life around small town golf clubs, I couldn't imagine there is much of a path to restoration outside of a slow reversal of they way the course got to where it is, a 15 - 20 year plan to cut trees and alter mowing lines in a favorable manner.  Knowing Mike has been with the club a long time, I'd suspect he was also involved in some of the tree planting as well, just like every similar golf course program in the 80s and 90s.  The bad news is, even at top 100 clubs there are portions of the membership that don't understand thoughtful tree removal.  The good news is a superintendent at a place like Kankakee Elks has more autonomy to begin clearing without a committee needing to buy off.     

[DFarron]

The topic of hidden gem is always difficult to address because the definition itself is entirely dependent on what you consider hidden. I found this site because I played a "hidden gem" in Pasatiempo and discovered more about another "hidden gem" named Rustic Canyon on this site. The internet has made the world smaller but our passion for golf course architecture and ability to eloquently share why a course is good or not has diminished the number of courses that fit this category. With that in mind, I'm introducing two courses which I feel do not get discussion on either this site or in the general golf community. They are not courses I would recommend traveling to get to, but if in the area, should be considered for rounds.


Contra Costa CC (Pleasant Hill, CA) - Robert Trent Jones II
Full disclosure: I worked as an intern on the renovation here in 2014 by RTJII and my father is a member of the club. That being said, the club was an 18 hole AV Macan design, they only built 9 of Macan's holes (roughly where the front 9 is today) and then expanded to 18 in the 50's. In spite of Macan's lack of influence, the back is solid, with the highlight being the two-shot 11th, with a green that can play differently depending on the days pin location. That being said, the bread and butter of the course exists on the front. Macan had a par 3 where the green sat in the base of one of the barranca's, and while that has been lost, the 3rd is a stellar 4.5 par hole, with a shallow green and bunkering which mimics that of MacKenzie's work, the 5th, a short one-shotter with a reverse redan green, and the 6th, which, not including SFGC and Cal Club (since I have not seen either), is the best Par 5 I have seen in the Bay Area. Those hoping to reach the green in two have to hit a right-to-left shot that sneaks by the fairway bunker guarding the right, and then face an approach to a green which is guarded on the left by a greenside bunker and a barranca. Those laying up play a shot down to the valley 20-30 ft below, where they face a semi-blind approach up the hill to the green.


I always felt that Contra had the bones to be a great golf course, but it fell victim to a greens committee that had put in features which had no place on the golf course, and so much of it felt built up in spite of the routing. The focus of the renovation was to make the golf course feel like it fit into the landscape, much like Poppy Hill's renovation focused on getting rid of the most artificial of features. I still think there is some enlightenment to be had with the greens committee, the most egregious decision I saw during the redo was the greens committee's decision to keep a hawthorne tree, hardly a specimen, on the right of the 14th green, in spite of the fact that it diminished the playing characteristics of the hole AND blocked the view of Mt. Diablo on the 15th tee, but the redo by RTJII was terrific, and it was a great project to work on.


(on a side note, anyone wanting to see Contra Costa should send me a message. No promises as my dad, newly retired, travels quite a bit, but he's happy to show people around if I'm not in town)


Balboa Park (San Diego, CA) - William Bell
I am incredibly lucky to have lived the last 5 months less than a mile from Balboa, a William Bell design that opened in 1921. Admittedly, when I moved down here, my expectation was to take advantage of the local rates at Torrey, pop over to Barona every once in a while (which, I've been popping over to Barona much more during the week as their twilight rates are quite good, but that's beside the point). It just so happened that the first round I played down here was at Balboa, and in spite of it's short 6000 yard back tees, I was blown away. It's full of quirky, interesting holes, most notably the bunkerless 4th, where you play an iron off the tee and face a mid-length approach to a green benched into the hillside, but anything missed right of the green faces a brutally daunting up and down from well below the green.


However, what blows me away about Balboa isn't the wealth of half par holes or the quirky holes on the golf course, it's how well the routing takes advantage of the bluffs of the canyons and the valley. The first 5 holes work through the valley below, with the long par-3 6th creating the transition up to the top of the canyon, and while the 8th through 10th are rather bland golf holes, the rest of the back 9 works out on the fingers of the bluffs above the first 6th, reaching a climax with the par 5 16th, a dogleg left with a lateral hazard (the canyon) on the left and OB (property line and the end of the ridge) on the right. The hole features some of the best views of downtown San Diego and is downright thrilling. Other than Clear Creek (which uses the terrain to add length to the course to mitigate the altitude) it is one of the most ingenious routings I have ever seen, and a terrific use of space.

Bravo on Contra Costa! My favorite in the East Bay...

[Blake Conant]

In the bay area:

Delta View - Allegedly the original 9 were designed by MacK.  Very affordable green fees.

Did some research on Delta View and it closed in late February of this year.  The article said they were looking for a buyer.  Shame as the pics on the website look like great views with good land movement.  Any of you Bay Area people heard anything more recent about this place?


As for a contribution to the thread, I'd offer up:


Elmwood Golf Course - Omaha, NE.  A short 18-hole muni with lots of land movement and some weird features and holes because of it.  A good place to play if you're in Omaha and in desperate need of a game.


Field Club of Omaha - Omaha, NE.  Short, tight routing with some good elevation change and holes benched into long, steep slopes, creating some pretty funky, knuckly, green pads.  You hit a golf shot over Woolworth road 6 different times.


Thedford Golf Course - Thedford, NE.  9-hole sand hill course that is, I believe, laid out by Cory Crandell, the original super at Sand Hills Golf Club.  There are three standout holes that utilize some beautiful undulating dunesland.  If you're in the area to play one of the big course you should stop here for an hour.


Brainerd Golf Course - Chattanooga, TN.  ~10 Ross holes on flat land with some good greens.  the other 8 holes are sort of an abomination, but everything is worth it to play the 7th hole.  Short 4 uphill to a green benched on a 20 foot high plateau with death right.


Maxwelton Golf Course - Syracuse, IN.  Langford that it's in need of all the same stuff as Kankakee.  Not nearly the brilliance of Kankakee, but 7 and 9 and 18 are really good greens and there are a few more scattered about.


The Fields Golf Club - LaGrange, GA.  One of Mike Young's first courses (maybe his first?) on good land, with a good routing and subtle shaping that emphasizes the natural contours.  Some bold decisions made, too, like the uphill par 3.  It's everything we talk about golf needing more of i.e., good architecture that's affordable and properly maintained.


Mechanicville Golf Course - Mechanicville, NY.  Appears to be an untouched 9-hole Emmet that's overgrown with perhaps one hole lost in the forest between 2 and 3.  1 has some really cool bunkering sitting on the forest edge that tells you how overgrown the place really is.  Some really cool shapes and tons of potential, particularly for the downhill 3rd hole and long 4th hole that runs along the river.  Right now there are 0 views or interaction with the river, but there could be with some tree work.

[BHoover]

I had the opportunity over the weekend to play my favorite hidden gem for the first time in nearly 3.5 years — Springfield CC. Still my favorite.

[Matthew Petersen]

RE: Balboa

I’ve never played it but is the hole on the west end of the property that runs on a hilltop with what looks to be death on both sides as hard as it looks from the air? 

I fly into SAN many times a year and that hole just looks deadly.

That's the 16th. The tee shot probably errs on the side of too difficult and penal, but the fairway is about 40-50 yards wide. Longer hitters have to worry about OB right if they hit driver and it's roughly 270 to cut the corner on the fly, making it really difficult if you're trying to get there in two. Overall, it isn't too bad.

It's a really great risk/reward tee shot. You're right that it's probably 270 or so to just fly the edge of the canyon totally. But it's only 235 or so over the last bunker on the left, so I always liked to try to start a drive at the tree and turn it over a bit. If hit well, it would carry the bunker with some draw and be moving left past the tree down the fairway. If I really hit it well, I then had a pretty good chance to get home in two. Of course, that requires a really well executed drive. Failing to pull that off could yield all sorts of negative outcomes from the decent (you hit it just Ok and get caught up in the rough and have to lay up), merely frustrating (you don't turn it over and you end up behind the tree, having to punch out and leaving a longish third), to the bad (snap it into the canyon), to the outright catastrophic (whoops, I just got stuck and blocked that one over the fence onto Pershing and now I'm hitting 3).


Underrated quality facet of that hole, as well is that well placed bunker in the layup area. I can probably count the number of layup bunkers on munis on one hand. That one has not only survived, but it's a really good one because it pinches the fairway so you really have to either decide if you're going over it or staying short, because tacking around is tough with the canyon threatening on the other side.

[Kalen Braley]

Blake,


I recently read an article that confirms they are indeed looking for a buyer, which I suspect won't happen.


The article also killed the myth as they explained the timeline doesn't work.  The original 9 wasn't done until 14 years after Dr. MacK's death, so its extremely improbable it was one of his efforts...but it was fun to believe in while it lasted! 

[Blake Conant]

Kalen, thanks for the update.  And it sort of figures about the false MacKenzie narrative.  Enough people have put a magnifying glass to MacKenzie's every movement that finding a long lost course of his seemed like a long shot.  Regardless of the architect, the land at Delta View still looked cool and interesting and fun.  A shame they can't make it work. 

[Garland Bayley]

If Portmahomack is not in this thread already, it needs to be added immediately. Which I guess my post does.

Thanks very much for the pointers Rihc and Jon.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, thanks for the update.  And it sort of figures about the false MacKenzie narrative.  Enough people have put a magnifying glass to MacKenzie's every movement that finding a long lost course of his seemed like a long shot.  Regardless of the architect, the land at Delta View still looked cool and interesting and fun.  A shame they can't make it work.

Blake,


Agreed, Its why I believed it for so long.  The original 9 has some very cool holes with a lot of subtle movement in the fairways and wicked greens where you can be 15 feet from the pin and just praying to two putt.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Some interesting selections in this article in Links Mag including Pine Dunes in Frankston, TX and Duke GC in Durham, NC :




https://www.linksmagazine.com/top_10_courses_worth_discovering/

[Connor Dougherty]

Some interesting selections in this article in Links Mag including Pine Dunes in Frankston, TX and Duke GC in Durham, NC :

https://www.linksmagazine.com/top_10_courses_worth_discovering/

The only three I've seen on that list are Pine Dunes, Rams Hill (which I did think was pretty darn good when I saw it a week ago), and Bandon Crossings (which most definitely belongs). Pine Dunes is in a great setting on sandy soil, and there's some pretty cool holes, but there were two things that turned me off about it: The shaping was at times so clearly unnatural and forced that I was wondering what they possibly could have been thinking, which seemed a bit unnecessary given the natural shape of the landscape through there, and that their bunkers were circular blobs which held water and contrasted with the rugged natural look of the natural landscape in the trees. They would have been a lot better off using the natural landscape as a hazard and using surface drainage to direct as much of the water into the trees as possible. Given the low budget nature of it now, it would have made a lot of sense for them in the long run.

[Mike_Trenham]

Manchester Country Club Vermont


I was pleasantly surprised by this course, which I think meets the hidden gem test as my searches on here found very little about the place.


 A 1967 Cornish design which by some accounts may be his best.  The front nine is a little of the back and fourth variety when looked at from above but the slope of the land and gentle turns to the holes lessens that detraction as does the progression of par and hole lengths.  After about the 5th hole the course really gets going.  The back nine is on the other side of the Bratten Kill River and on land with a bit more variety.  The back nine is bigger and bolder than the front.


When I see 1967 and 6800+ yards with a river my assumption is it may be another course from the era of making par hard to get the test that mattered most.  While not a push over it’s a good mix of challenge and options.  There is a very good variety of shots and lots of unlevel lies to be found.  The greens tended to be sloped and tiered for their defense with less but not absent internal contouring.  There’s not a weak/bad or boring hole on the course. 


I walked and carried my clubs the walk was about an 7 or 8 out of ten in terms of difficulty for a course with tees generally in close proximity to the prior green.  Walk up to 11 tee is the one exception and I was able to hitch a ride.


Manchester VT is also home to Ekwanok, The Equinox and Dorset CC as well.

[Dan_Callahan]

Manchester VT is also home to Ekwanok, The Equinox and Dorset CC as well.

Ekwanok is probably the least well known great golf course in New England. I'm sure because it is so exclusive, but man ... it is really fun in an amazing setting.

[Tim Martin]

Manchester VT is also home to Ekwanok, The Equinox and Dorset CC as well.

Ekwanok is probably the least well known great golf course in New England. I'm sure because it is so exclusive, but man ... it is really fun in an amazing setting.

+1

[mike_malone]

A national hidden gem would be respected locally as much as a  nationally ranked course in the area. In Philly a few years ago I would suggest that Torresdale Frankford fit that  definition.
  I would probably say York is a good example now.


A local gem is under appreciated by the average golfers in the area and not ranked at all but respected by the cognescenti.


In the Philly area Schuylkill or Odessa would fit that. (They are an hour + but easy to get to)


  Reading the thread is interesting since courses like Old Town have gone from obscurity to highly rated.


Golfclubatlas has a lot to do with many courses becoming more well recognized.

[Ira Fishman]

We played Mulranny yesterday. Probably no longer hidden to regular visitors to gca, but it really is a gem. And not just because of the charm of being a nine holer in an isolated part of Ireland. The fairways bend both ways and generally provide an awkward angle off of the tee. The greens have some real movement in them that make the 6 stimp reading (a guess) almost necessary. The 6th is a wonderful long par 3 along the water. The 9th is a bit over the top but attacking the fort of a green is a fitting way to end the round.

[Steve Wilson]

Ira,
The benches at Mulranny are treacherous.  Somewhere on this august and revered site there is photographic evidence of how one of them threw me backwards.  Trust me, it happened.


Hidden Gems:  I can't believe this thread is sixteen years old and I haven't mentioned Preston Country Club in Kingwood West Virginia.  It's a bit of out of the way, but if any of you ever find your way to Morgantown or even within an hour of Kingwood, it's well worth the trip.

[Tommy Williamsen]

This question is always difficult because the world is becoming a small place.  That said here are a few top HGs.

CASTLETOWN - fairly well thought of in the UK as it usually makes top 100 lists, but I know very few people you have actually seen the course.  Its hidden and a gem.

PERRANPORTH - again, fairly well known for holiday makers to Cornwall, but it doesn't really register on lists.  Its more of a gem than hidden.

I am gonna go with BEAU DESERT as one.  It never makes any lists and its mainly only played by Midlanders - its difficult to get people to visit Brum, but they wouldn't be disappointed with Beau.  Being in Brum its off the tourista trail - though its definitely more of a gem than hidden. 

WHITTINGTON HEATH - Very much under the radar even for Midlanders.  Solid if unspectacular golf.  Another one which is much more a gem than hidden.

Of course I have to go with KINGTON.  It is the very essence of of a hidden gem.  Beautiful spot, unique architecture and and it doesn't cost the earth.

DELAMERE FOREST - its one of those that folks here have heard of, but few play even though its convenient for Manchester airport.  It ain't hidden, but its sure a gem.

The last one I will mention is STONEHAM.  This place knocked my socks off last year.  I couldn't believe Park Jr had designed both Huntercombe and Stoneham.  In any case, the course is located in non tourista country near Southampton. 

There are others of lesser quality, but still quite enjoyable.  However, the above are the ones I would highly recommend.

Ciao

Amazing what happens in 16 years. None of those would be considered "Hidden" although they certainly re gems.

[Thomas Dai]

This question is always difficult because the world is becoming a small place.  That said here are a few top HGs.
CASTLETOWN - fairly well thought of in the UK as it usually makes top 100 lists, but I know very few people you have actually seen the course.  Its hidden and a gem.
PERRANPORTH - again, fairly well known for holiday makers to Cornwall, but it doesn't really register on lists.  Its more of a gem than hidden.
I am gonna go with BEAU DESERT as one.  It never makes any lists and it’s mainly only played by Midlanders - its difficult to get people to visit Brum, but they wouldn't be disappointed with Beau.  Being in Brum its off the tourista trail - though its definitely more of a gem than hidden. 
WHITTINGTON HEATH - Very much under the radar even for Midlanders.  Solid if unspectacular golf.  Another one which is much more a gem than hidden.
Of course I have to go with KINGTON.  It is the very essence of of a hidden gem.  Beautiful spot, unique architecture and and it doesn't cost the earth.
DELAMERE FOREST - its one of those that folks here have heard of, but few play even though its convenient for Manchester airport.  It ain't hidden, but its sure a gem.
The last one I will mention is STONEHAM.  This place knocked my socks off last year.  I couldn't believe Park Jr had designed both Huntercombe and Stoneham.  In any case, the course is located in non tourista country near Southampton. 
There are others of lesser quality, but still quite enjoyable.  However, the above are the ones I would highly recommend.
Ciao

Amazing what happens in 16 years. None of those would be considered "Hidden" although they certainly re gems.

And one of them has been radically altered as a result of a new railway line!
Atb

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