[Bob Jenkins]

Richard,

This would be a heck of a lot of fun if I could think of a course I had played that started with a par 3.

[John Goodman]

OK -   Make Pac Dunes 7 (par 4) into Pac Dunes 15 (par 5).

Make Ballybunion 15 (par 3) into Ballybunion 7 (par 4).

Make Pasatiempo 2 (par 4) into Pasatiempo 15 (par 3).

Make Olympic (Lake) 15 (erroneously called a par 5) into Olympic (Lake) 2 (par 4).

I think I liked the composite course better before, but I think this one meets the criteria anyway . . .

[Tom Huckaby]

Richard,

This would be a heck of a lot of fun if I could think of a course I had played that started with a par 3.

There are a few in the UK... but outside of that, think par three or executive courses!

I am still working on my list... it's TOUGH!

TH

[John Goodman]

The only four on full-size courses I could think of are in GB&I:  Walton Heath, Hayling, Kingussie, Boat of Garten.

Huck - a suggestion as you work on your list:  don't plug in Pebble or the Bandon courses too quickly - they've got so many really good holes that they can serve as utility infielders for you.  (I would think the same would be true of Cypress, Sand Hills and maybe others.)

[Tom Huckaby]

The only four on full-size courses I could think of are in GB&I:  Walton Heath, Hayling, Kingussie, Boat of Garten.

Huck - a suggestion as you work on your list:  don't plug in Pebble or the Bandon courses too quickly - they've got so many really good holes that they can serve as utility infielders for you.  (I would think the same would be true of Cypress, Sand Hills and maybe others.)

John:

Oh sure NOW you tell me.   

I found this out painfully as I am now stuck with few par fives.  But I'll get it done.  The trade-offs are pretty darn fun to think about.... and yes, these courses have served already as darn good utility infielders.

TH

[Rich Goodale]

For opening par3s, dont forget Royal Lytham St. Annnes..

[Michael Powers]

you have way too much time on your hands.

[Stan Dodd]

And Pacific Grove

[Dan King]

Tough going. Lots of compromises. For instance, the seventh hole at The Machrie is not the best hole on the course by a long shot. Yet there it is, because it is a good hole that fits in the slot. Most of my golf is California, Florida, Texas, Scotland, and Ireland. I was surprised not a single hole I played in Texas made the list.

1. Royal Lytham
2. Ardglass
3. Club de Golf Mexico
4. Riviera
5. Prestwick
6. Brora
7. San Francisco
8. Troon
9. St. Annes
10. Pacific Grove
11. Sandpiper
12. Murcar
13. Crail (Balcomie)
14. Vallley Club of Montecito
15. North Berwick
16. Cypress
17. Blairgowrie
18. Pasatiempo


1. Royal Aberdeen
2. Kingsbarn
3. Rustic Canyon
4. Royal County Down
5. Nairn
6. St. Andrews (New)
7. Gullane #2
8. Pebble Beach
9. Ballybunion (Old)
10. Gullane#1
11. Bandon Trails
12. Tain
13. Nairn
14. Royal Dornoch
15. Corde Valle
16. Pacific Dunes
17. St. Andrews Old
18. Olympic Lake

1. Spyglass
2. Old Moray
3. County Sligo
4. Harding Park
5. Cruden Bay
6. Carnoustie
7. The Machrie
8. Half Moon Bay Ocean
9. TPC Sawgrass
10. Spanish Bay
11. Haggin Oaks
12. Machrihanish
13. Bandon Dunes
14. Castle Pines
15. Seminole
16. Stanford
17. Muirfield
18. Kapalua Plantation

Cheers,
Dan King

Course built for 300 yard tee shot artists are not great course.
  --Peter Thompson

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

Like my long time pupil, TEPaul, you'll begin to get the gist of these three threads when I post a related thread after a sufficient number of replies have been entered.

Patience my man.

I am Job when it comes to patience.  How do we know, however, that this is one of the 2% of the times that TEPaul says that you are right?

[Ally Mcintosh]

For opening par3s, dont forget Royal Lytham St. Annnes..

or the berkshire blue course... beautiful opener, especially in late summer...

[Peter Pallotta]

Rich,

Like my long time pupil, TEPaul, you'll begin to get the gist of these three threads when I post a related thread after a sufficient number of replies have been entered.

Patience my man.

I am Job when it comes to patience.  How do we know, however, that this is one of the 2% of the times that TEPaul says that you are right?

10 to 1 says that the gist of Patrick's threads will be "I'm Patrick Mucci, and you're not"... 

Peter

[John Goodman]

2. Kingsbarn


Oops . . .

[Rich Goodale]

Wow, John!  Dan is THE King and even he makes mistakes.  This is one damned hard test I've created.....

[John Goodman]

It's like Sodoku, with the degree of difficulty driven by how many courses you've played.   I think to even have a shot at a credible list, you have to have played about 100.

[Tom Huckaby]

Damn right this was tough!  But it's a great exercise and I concur, far more interesting than what Pat seems to be doing.

So OK, here goes.  My list gets weak in the par fives, with some local faves added just for kicks.  I think I have it all correct... but I stand ready to read about something I got wrong....

Par 3s
 
1.  Walton Heath (Old)
2.  Bandon Trails
3.  Olympic Club - Lakeside
4.  Royal County Down
5.  Lahinch
6.  Royal Dornoch
7.  San Francisco GC
8.  Royal Troon (Old)
9.  Yale
10.  Bel-Air CC
11.  Shinnecock Hills
12.   Royal Birkdale
13.  Muirfield
14.  Royal Portrush
15.  N. Berwick (West)
16.  Cypress Point
17.  Cabo del Sol (Ocean)
18.  Pasatiempo

Par 4s

1.  Portstewart
2.  Bayonet (old version before current re-do)
3.  Valley Club of Montecito
4.  Bandon Dunes
5.  Nairn
6.  Green Spring (Hurricane, Utah)
7.  Sand Hills GC
8.  Pebble Beach
9.  Royal County Down
10.  Riviera
11.  Ballybunion (Old)
12.  Lehigh CC
13.  Pacific Dunes
14.  Applebrook GC
15.  World Woods (Pine Barrens)
16.  La Quinta (Mountain)
17.  St. Andrews (Old)
18.  Carnoustie

Par 5s

1.  Spyglass Hill
2.  San Juan Oaks
3.  Prestwick
4.  Winged Foot GC - East
5.  Rustic Canyon
6.  Cruden Bay
7.  Nairn
8.  St. Andrews New Course
9.  MPCC Dunes
10.  Shoreline GL (Mountain View, CA)
11. Santa Teresa GC
12. Kingsbarns
13.  Ballyliffin - Glashedy
14.  Baltimore CC (Five Farms) 
15.  Castlerock GC (Northern Ireland)
16.  PGA West (Stadium)
17.  Old Head
18.  NGLA

[John Goodman]

Excellent list, Tom.

Did you start by compiling all your par 3s first?  Because while the whole list is good, those 3s are strong as train smoke, as they say.

[Tom Huckaby]

Excellent list, Tom.

Did you start by compiling all your par 3s first?  Because while the whole list is good, those 3s are strong as train smoke, as they say.

You figured me out, John.  I did start with the par threes and worked down... made some changes as necessary as I struggled for par fives.  But yes, I'd agree my par three list is pretty darn strong.  I guess I just WANTED to include many of those all-world greats, you know?  Thus I sacrificed later.

This is a very fun puzzle and I'd encourage all to give it a try.

TH

[Dan King]

Oops, I'm not sure what hole I was thinking of at Kingsbarn, but it now would be too difficult to fit it in here. It does give me a chance to fit in a Texas course.

1. Royal Lytham
2. Ardglass
3. Club de Golf Mexico
4. Riviera
5. Prestwick
6. Brora
7. San Francisco
8. Troon
9. St. Annes
10. Pacific Grove
11. Sandpiper
12. Murcar
13. Crail (Balcomie)
14. Vallley Club of Montecito
15. North Berwick
16. Cypress
17. Blairgowrie
18. Pasatiempo


1. Royal Aberdeen
2. Chase Oaks
3. Rustic Canyon
4. Royal County Down
5. Nairn
6. St. Andrews (New)
7. Gullane #2
8. Pebble Beach
9. Ballybunion (Old)
10. Gullane#1
11. Bandon Trails
12. Tain
13. Nairn
14. Royal Dornoch
15. Corde Valle
16. Pacific Dunes
17. St. Andrews Old
18. Olympic Lake

1. Spyglass
2. Old Moray
3. County Sligo
4. Harding Park
5. Cruden Bay
6. Carnoustie
7. The Machrie
8. Half Moon Bay Ocean
9. TPC Sawgrass
10. Spanish Bay
11. Haggin Oaks
12. Machrihanish
13. Bandon Dunes
14. Castle Pines
15. Seminole
16. Stanford
17. Muirfield
18. Kapalua Plantation

Have they really screwed up the second hole at Bayonet? That was a really good hole. I almost included Santa Teresa's 11, but couldn't remember if it was a par-4 or par-5. I think it is  a better hole than Haggin Oaks, a hole I included more because I needed a hole close to home.

I should try and figure out a place to put a Granite Bay hole. I love their par-3s.

Cheers,
Dan King

The reason the Road hole at St. Andrews is the most difficult par 4 in the world is that it was designed as a par 6.
  --Ben Crenshaw

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan - I haven't been to the "new" Bayonet yet, but given the work they did all over, I just assumed they MUST have screwed it up.  Thus my disclaimer.

And 11 Santa Teresa was included just because I had to get one from my home course, same as you, wanted a close to home pick!  Yep, it's a very weird short par five, over the wash and up the hill.

TH

[John Moore II]

I think I will abstain from doing this, having played a limited number of courses, I would really struggle to make a list such as this. As far as I can recall, I have played only one course with a Par 3 to start and I can't think of any course that has a par 3 to finish. So, my list is shot right there.

[Ed Oden]

A very tough exercise.  Here is my list, one that I am not really satisfied with but don't have the energy to put any more thought into:

Par 3s
 
1.  Madison GC, Madison, NJ (Its where I grew up playing and the ONLY par 3 opener I can recall playing)
2.  Sage Valley
3.  Wade Hampton
4.  Pinehurst (No. 4)
5.  Bandon Trails
6.  NGLA
7.  Whistling Straits
8.  Blackwolf Run (Meadow Valley)
9.  Grandfather
10.  Friars Head
11.  LACC (North)
12.  Broadmoor (East)
13.  Medinah (No. 3)
14.  Pacific Dunes
15.  Pinehurst (No. 8 )
16.  Carolina GC
17.  Kiawah (Ocean)
18.  Homestead (Cascades)

Par 4s
 
1.  Yeamans Hall
2.  Plainfield
3.  Baltimore (Five Farms)
4.  Spyglass
5.  Pinehurst (No. 2)
6.  Harding Park
7.  Morris County
8.  Pebble Beach
9.  Diamond Creek
10.  Atlantic
11.  Deepdale
12.  Congressional (Gold)
13.  Palmetto
14.  Shinnecock
15.  Canterbury
16.  Bandon Dunes
17.  St. Andrews (Old)
18.  Quail Hollow

Par 5s
 
1.  Pine Needles
2.  Linville
3.  Forest Creek (South)
4.  Old North State
5.  Barton Creek (Fazio Foothills)
6.  Congressional (Blue)
7.  Roaring Gap
8.  Blackwolf Run (River)
9.  Cog Hill (No.4)
10.  Mid Pines
11.  TPC Sawgrass
12.  Charlotte
13.  Sandpiper
14.  Haig Point
15.  Harbour Town
16.  Firestone (South)
17.  Baltusrol (Lower)
18.  Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow)

[Ville Nurmi]

Tom H.
Your list does have Newcastle as a par 3 and a 4.
It is rainy sunday in Finland.

Ville
Ps.

I´m trying an international and a national version. You wouldn´t know any of the holes in the national version.

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