What is your handicap...?

[Andy Ryall]

Much like JAL posted previously, my index is 8.2 and I have 1 score in the 70's.   I don't understand the USGA's desire to handicap one's "potential" - why not just calculate your last 10 rounds or 20 rounds using the same formula.  As the Big Tuna, Bill Parcells, is famous for saying regarding how good/bad a given team may be, "You are what your record says you are".

I would be considered a "weak" 8 due to the volatility of my score compared to a "strong" 8 that may score consistently between 79-85. 

[Lou_Duran]

J.K. Moore,

Are you sure that slope is not part of the index calculation?

The was I calculate my handicap is as follows:

1. Adjust my gross score downward for any single hole score above 6.
2. Subtract the adjusted gross score (the results of #1) from the applicable course rating.
3. Take the result of #2 and multiply by quotient of the applicable slope by 113.
4. Take the lowest 10 from the last 20 scores as calculated in steps 1-3, and divide by 10.

It has been my experience at three or four clubs that vanity handicaps are much more common than those of sandbaggers.  Also,  holding everything else equal, it appears to me that golfers with handicaps established from the back tees have a considerable advantage over those with similar handicaps who normally play the shorter markers.  

[Mike Golden]

I know that every once in a while that people have a terrible round and that it does not reflect what their handicap is or what they normally shoot.  However, I would say 9 out of 10 times when a guy tells me he is a 7 or 8 handicap then proceeds to slice balls into no man's land and barely breaks 100 I find it humorous.  I am by no means a great golfer, about an 18 handicap.  I just wonder if the system is flawed or the majority of guys don't want to actually admit that golf is no easy game and breaking 90 is often difficult when mulligans are not taken on 5 holes and the ball is not picked up within 3 feet of the cup.

you have obviously never belonged to a private club, where handicaps are both accurate and reflective of ability.  There are always a few vanity handicaps, but far more prevalent are sandbaggers who make sure their handicaps are higher than they should be so they can win in net tournaments

Mike, which private club are you a member at? I have worked as an assistant pro and a caddie at 6 or 7 private clubs here. That means I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of golfers in my twelve years in the States. I would say that in a strokeplay situation ( whick is extremely rare) - at least 80% of private club golfers could not play to their handicap on a regular basis. As I said earlier, I have witnessed this time and time again and it baffles me how somebody can give themselves a 7 handicap when there is no way on earth they can break 90. Maybe you can explain.

I've belonged to the following private clubs:
-Lake Merced GC
-San Jose GC
-Palo Alto Hills GC
-Berkeley Hills GC

Lake Merced has a well earned reputation as a tough track, just look at the recent qualifying scores at the Sectional Open Qualifier with pins that were in much easier locations than for the club championship.

I don't understand the 'give themselves a handicap' comment.  You post your scores and your handicap is calculated.  I have always played in games where that either gave putts 'inside the leather' or not at all.  No mulligans, no bending the rules, balls played down except when the course was really wet and soppy.  I have played with fellow members who have qualified for US Senior Amateurs and Mid Amateurs as well as the San Francisco City Championship.  I'm far from a great player but, as a 7, feel like I could almost always beat a 10 like a drum if there were no strokes involved.  Personally, I think all scores should be counted rather than throwing out the 10 worst ones but the system is the system.  I've personally never seen someone with a 7 handicap look like anything but a decent golfer with a solid golf swing, I guess we play in different golf universes.

[Matt Varney]

Lou,

I don't maintain a USGA handicap because I think the system is flawed.  I play from the tips and shoot 80-82 almost all the time at my home course.  If I play from the white tees at almost any club with friends I pound my playing partners that all claim to be 5 to 10 handicaps.

The system needs to be accurate your handicap is an average of what you shoot regularly not some perfect round on a short course from the white tees with pool table flat greens.  For me 50% of playing is the challenge of hitting shots that require focus and attention.  When you play it back it is tougher and you are tested to hit fairways, greens and earn birdies.

[Mike Golden]

Lou,

I don't maintain a USGA handicap because I think the system is flawed.  I play from the tips and shoot 80-82 almost all the time at my home course.  If I play from the white tees at almost any club with friends I pound my playing partners that all claim to be 5 to 10 handicaps.

The system needs to be accurate your handicap is an average of what you shoot regularly not some perfect round on a short course from the white tees with pool table flat greens.  For me 50% of playing is the challenge of hitting shots that require focus and attention.  When you play it back it is tougher and you are tested to hit fairways, greens and earn birdies.

the only reason for a handicap is to make equitable matches.  If there was no stroke giving in match play why would we need anything?  I used to play lots of tennis and all we had were USTA levels which were evaluations of our ability against certain standards.  So let's just do away with getting or giving strokes, rate golfers according to ability just like in tennis, and then we won't have to worry about it, right?  Unfortunately, most regular golfers play for some kind of money and everyone wants to get as many strokes as possible.

[Dan Herrmann]

I'm surprised so many gus are saying that 'caps would be higher if every put was actually holed.  I'd hazard a guess that 90% of my play is match play, where concessions are OK.  

Obviously, you post rounds played under match play rules.  

I also wonder how many folks post an 18 hole score if they play 13, or a 9 if they play just 7...

[Wayne_Freedman]

And that's a problem.

So is the difference between between a high handicapper and a low one when engaged in match play.
A 14 will beat a 5 almost every time.

[Steve Kline]

As an example, I am a 6.5 index right now and the average of my last 20 scores is 82.5.

Given the course rating over 79 and the slope of 153, I would be a 9 handicap at Torrey right now.  It is highly unlikely that I would shoot 81 (+9 to par).  But, the scratch golfer would be shooting 79 so 88 or so would be a good score.   I'd probably average around 93-95 in 20 rounds there.

In any given round with the pressure they had, the TV crews, spectators etc, I'd say the scores weren't that bad.

Here is my problem with the handicap system - it is totally dependent on what course you play the most. Your handicap should not be different because you are a member at Oakmont or a muni player. The course ratings and slopes should be adjusted so that no matter where you play your handicap doesn't travel well. The fact that there are traveling handicaps from some clubs that are notably higher than others tells you the system is screwed up.

[Mike Golden]

And that's a problem.

So is the difference between between a high handicapper and a low one when engaged in match play.
A 14 will beat a 5 almost every time.

Wayne,

That is way too general a statement, it really depends on the two players and the strengths and weaknesses of their games.  I can lose to a 14 who is consistent but almost always will beat a 14 who makes a bunch of doubles and triples interspersed with pars.

[Steve Kline]

And that's a problem.

So is the difference between between a high handicapper and a low one when engaged in match play.
A 14 will beat a 5 almost every time.

There's another problem. When was the last time anyone ever heard of a scratch golfer or low single digit handicap winning a handicapped event at their club. The system is totally bogus and biased towards the mid level handicap. Either that or the are all sand baggers.

[Matt Varney]

Guys,

Let me give you a perfect example of this crazy handicap index system.  On Friday, I played with another GCA guy as the guest of a member at a great course The Olde Farm. 

As I already mentioned in this thread I consider myself a 10 handicap forget what the USGA GHIN thinks.  Well we step up on #1 tee and play a little money game with me as 10 and my playing partners in the range of 10-14.  We all played good our host the member played really well and they won.  Long story short, I shot 86 from the Blue Tees on a great course that was in perfect condition that I had never even seen before or played.  I lost 2 balls hitting poor tee shots with my driver and my putting was not good because the greens were fast and perfect probably rolling in the 11-12 stimp range.  I would try to make a birdie and roll it 6-8 feet past the hole and miss the par putts coming back and tap in a 6" putt for bogey. 

What I am getting at is if I had told the member I was a 6 then shot 86 I would have looked like a dumb ass.  I told him I was a 10 and in the end after the round I shot 4 shots higher than my handicap and he saw those extra shots due to a couple lost tee balls and some poor putting on perfect contoured fast greens.

My theory on calculating handicaps worked perfectly and had I played better I might have shot 80.  I feel that handicaps need to be based on length and slope of the courses you platy then an average of your scores on those courses from not potential for your best round.  I can't tell you how many times that I have heard a guy say come play my club and he shoots 80 because he knows every corner and where to miss it so he can scramble and make par or bogey if he misses the fairways and greens.  You take that same guy on a golf trip and he finishes near the bottom of the group every round because he can't play other courses only his home course.

Case Closed!

[Wayne_Kozun]

One other thing to keep in mind is that if you get better it takes a little while for the handicapping system to catch up.  That could be one reason why it is harder for scratch players to win net events.  If you were a 10 but are starting to play much better, say at the level of a 5, then it will take your cap 10 rounds or so to catch up.  That can be several months for some players.

[Rick Sides]

Well said Matt. When a person plays a course over and over, he learns where  to hit the ball, what club to take, and all the little intricacies of the greens.  I played with a man the other day on a course I never played and he has been a member almost 30 years.  He knew the greens like the back of his hand.  Had he not helped me several times, I would have added at least 5 more strokes. So it is a weird system of sorts.  I don't completely understand it, it just makes me laugh when 90% of the people I play with whom I've never played with before say they are one handicap and don't even shoot close to what they claim to be. I know a lot of people use the handicap system to bet and some people may say their handicap is higher to win some money, but I'm saying the majority of men will give a handicap that is not accurate.  Somebody earlier said, if you belong to a private club, how could you cheat because they post scores right after the round, but let's be honest, even then you can overlook a shot here or there and move the ball a bit or your buddy yells "that's good" when your putt is not even close.

[Ed Oden]

Matt Varney:

Adjusting your handicap to reflect what you think it should be because you don't like the way the USGA calculates handicaps is like adjusting your income taxes to reflect what you think you should pay because you don't like the way the government calculates your taxable income.  I doubt that your playing partners would be any more thrilled with your adjustment than the IRS.  While you may not agree with the USGA handicap system, until it changes, those of us that live in the US have to honor it.

Ed   

[Dean Stokes]

Matt Varney:

Adjusting your handicap to reflect what you think it should be because you don't like the way the USGA calculates handicaps is like adjusting your income taxes to reflect what you think you should pay because you don't like the way the government calculates your taxable income.  I doubt that your playing partners would be any more thrilled with your adjustment than the IRS.  While you may not agree with the USGA handicap system, until it changes, those of us that live in the US have to honor it.

Ed   

So Ed, if I get in the Wednesday afternoon foursome and we are throwing the balls up for partners, I should be thrilled to honor the USGA system when I get partnered in the $50 nassau with the member who says he's a 7 but who is likely not to come in one hole because he's really a 22.
Maybe what we are talking about here is not the 'true' USGA system but how it can be manipulated so that your 'ego' or 'restaurant' handicap as I like to call it can be whatever you want it to be.

Sounds great to the crowd in the restaurant but awful to the unlucky sole who happens to get you as a partner. "I'm out of the hole Dean yer on your own, again." Right.

[Tony Petersen]

Matt Varney:

Adjusting your handicap to reflect what you think it should be because you don't like the way the USGA calculates handicaps is like adjusting your income taxes to reflect what you think you should pay because you don't like the way the government calculates your taxable income.  I doubt that your playing partners would be any more thrilled with your adjustment than the IRS.  While you may not agree with the USGA handicap system, until it changes, those of us that live in the US have to honor it.

Ed   

Well said, Ed. In the end, you're cheating. Case closed.

[Tony Petersen]

As far as throwing balls, use the index based on Tournament scores. Simple enough.

[Matt Varney]

Ed,

Golf is founded on honor, integrity and traditions.  I find it truly amazing that a game that at its core requires you to be honest and play with honor by the rules and that you call a penalty on yourself during your round then post you scores.  The USGA GHIN system is totally screwed up and it will never get fixed and when I shot a score around 80-82 all the time from the tips and then get my handicap and it says 6 we have a problem.  I am a total gentleman and play by the rules and I have never had a round where a playing partner on any course felt I was not truly honest on my abilites to play the game.  

Comparing my income and taxes paid to the IRS and the USGA GHIN system is absurd.  I play by the rules pay taxes on all my income earned - I don't cheat the system and I have flawless financials in the event I ever get audited with my accounting firm standing right next to me.

My character and my integrity mean more to me that some dumb ass handicap index.  I don't carry a USGA handicap anymore I just play the game and tell my partners this is my true handicap.  Guess what Ed, I play courses all over the country (public, private and resorts) and I rarely shoot 5-7 shots over my average scores at home in Knoxville.

That is honest and real so the system is flawed!

[Dean Stokes]

As far as throwing balls, use the index based on Tournament scores. Simple enough.

Nobody plays tournaments Tony so that would be really tough.

[Ed Oden]

Matt Varney:

Adjusting your handicap to reflect what you think it should be because you don't like the way the USGA calculates handicaps is like adjusting your income taxes to reflect what you think you should pay because you don't like the way the government calculates your taxable income.  I doubt that your playing partners would be any more thrilled with your adjustment than the IRS.  While you may not agree with the USGA handicap system, until it changes, those of us that live in the US have to honor it.

Ed   

So Ed, if I get in the Wednesday afternoon foursome and we are throwing the balls up for partners, I should be thrilled to honor the USGA system when I get partnered in the $50 nassau with the member who says he's a 7 but who is likely not to come in one hole because he's really a 22.
Maybe what we are talking about here is not the 'true' USGA system but how it can be manipulated so that your 'ego' or 'restaurant' handicap as I like to call it can be whatever you want it to be.

Sounds great to the crowd in the restaurant but awful to the unlucky sole who happens to get you as a partner. "I'm out of the hole Dean yer on your own, again." Right.

Dean, I understand your feelings.  But at the end of the day, your problem is with the people that skew the system and not with the system itself.  Do you really believe that those same people wouldn't skew their handicaps if it were based on a pure average of actual scores?  If you are playing a game where you think the field is tilted, then that sounds like a bet I want no part of.

Ed

[Dean Stokes]

Wasn't the idea of this thread to establish why so many golfers cannot play to the handicap they admit to being?

We are not discussing sandbaggers here. We are discussing 'inverted' sandbaggers and how the system allows them to get to this point.

Let's get back to the point. How can players call themselves 5, 10 or 15 handicappers when they cannot play within 10 or 15 shots of that in a competition scenario?

Simple. Because a system that allows you to walk to a computer screen and punch in whatever numbers you want on any given date allows it!

Until the USGA enforces 'competition' scores only counting for handicap there will always be 'inverted' sandbaggers. I just hope you don't get them as a partner

[Matt Varney]

Well said Dean

Tony, I would love to play with you in a money game as your partner and see the look on your face when you hit a tee ball O.B. on 18 with the match on the line and you are counting on me to make par on 440 yard par 4 hole to win a match for a couple hundred.

Your thought process would change completely when I hammer a drive in the fairway and can hit the green then two putt.  I can play the game the guy that is really a 20 handicap that says he is 7 you need to go ahead and get your money out because you lost the match.

Let me know when you want to play sometime?  I will take your money

[Eric Smith]

Matt Varney:

Adjusting your handicap to reflect what you think it should be because you don't like the way the USGA calculates handicaps is like adjusting your income taxes to reflect what you think you should pay because you don't like the way the government calculates your taxable income.  I doubt that your playing partners would be any more thrilled with your adjustment than the IRS.  While you may not agree with the USGA handicap system, until it changes, those of us that live in the US have to honor it.

Ed   

Well said, Ed. In the end, you're cheating. Case closed.

Matt didn't 'adjust' his handicap yesterday.  He doesn't have a handicap.  He told us all he played to a 10 on the first tee.  I can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience, when I hear 10, my brain tells me the person shoots around 82.

Now I do have a usga hcp and right now my index is 9.1, equating to a 10 from the blue tees at The Olde Farm yesterday.

Matt shot 86, I shot 87.  We played the same.  Missed more putts than usual, attributed to the challenging greens.

I am also not a fan of the system.  I turned in 22 scores to my pro last month, all of my rounds for 2008.  The average score was I think 86.5, something like that.  Equals a 9.1?  It's the system and that's fine.  I'm just sticking up for Matt here because "In the end, you're cheating. Case closed." got my attention in the above post.

Eric

Ed,

Golf is founded on honor, integrity and traditions.  I find it truly amazing that a game that at its core requires you to be honest and play with honor by the rules and that you call a penalty on yourself during your round then post you scores.  The USGA GHIN system is totally screwed up and it will never get fixed and when I shot a score around 80-82 all the time from the tips and then get my handicap and it says 6 we have a problem.  I am a total gentleman and play by the rules and I have never had a round where a playing partner on any course felt I was not truly honest on my abilites to play the game. 

Comparing my income and taxes paid to the IRS and the USGA GHIN system is absurd.  I play by the rules pay taxes on all my income earned - I don't cheat the system and I have flawless financials in the event I ever get audited with my accounting firm standing right next to me.

My character and my integrity mean more to me that some dumb ass handicap index.  I don't carry a USGA handicap anymore I just play the game and tell my partners this is my true handicap.  Guess what Ed, I play courses all over the country (public, private and resorts) and I rarely shoot 5-7 shots over my average scores at home in Knoxville.

That is honest and real so the system is flawed!

Great day yesterday.  Still grinning ear to ear. 

You're a 10. 

[Matt Varney]

Eric,

Great post to this thread and I would love for you and I to play as partners against some guys that tell me they have 5 or 8 USGA handicap.  We would smoke them playing together you have a really good game and what it really comes down to is - Can you play?

Really great day yesterday one of the best days of golf I have had in long time.

Matt

[Richard Boult]

Golf is founded on honor, integrity and traditions.

Yes, and whether you like the current system or not, it ONLY works if everyone uses it with honor and integrity.  People like you who choose not to use it are cheating.  The current system is fair as long as everyone uses it as designed (which requires honor and integrity).