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Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Request for Tom MacWood
« on: June 07, 2008, 12:15:31 AM »
Tom,

I enjoyed your piece on the pioneer golf course architects.

You indicated that Sunningdale was the first golf course to be entirely seeded, and that seems to be a dividing line in your research between the pioneer architects era, and the golden age that followed. May we say then that the availability of golf course seed was what allowed the post-pioneer architects to be more creative with shaping the land, particularly on inland golf courses, to provide more strategy in design?

I ask this question for my own clarification, because if it is so, then the men who pioneered the agronomic side of golf's development might have been as instrumental in furthering the game as the golden age architects that we all know and love.

Could you devote your next essay to those men who wrote the grassing specifications for the golden age golf courses? As a greenskeeper, I am as fascinated by their story as I am by all of the great names that we associate with the development of golf. But the stories surrounding golf's formative agronomy is much more difficult to uncover.

My guess is that if you researched this aspect of golf's development, you will find a cast of characters who are quite colorful and interesting. And this is a missing piece of the puzzle that will help us all better understand the game.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 12:19:49 AM »
Mr. Anderson,

Interesting questions and obviously ones you are interested in.  So why not do the research yourself and let us know what you find out?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 12:31:05 AM »
David,

Reginald Beale from England keeps coming up in my (limited) research.

He may have even been involed with Merion.

He was the guy who grassed Sunningdale, and he made a few trips to America to consult. But I have not been able to trace if he was merely a representative of a seed company, or if he was a cultivator and inventor of grass seed for golf courses.

I think he may have even played a huge part in the development of golf courses in America. I even think that the top clubs in those days were as eager to secure the services of men of his ilk as they were the great architects, but the press that men like Beale received is not covered very thoroughly, and I can't say for certain if that was the case.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 01:07:44 AM »
Bradley,

A suggestion, there is a great deal of information to be found in advertisements. If you go through the early magazine issues look for seed and grass advertising and you'll find companies that lay claim to providing either seeds, stolons and/or sod for specific courses.

This may give you a focus for your researches...

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 01:56:13 AM »
"Mr. Anderson,
Interesting questions and obviously ones you are interested in.  So why not do the research yourself and let us know what you find out?"


David Moriarty:

Interesting questions indeed, and questions that prove you and Tom MacWood are too dense on the reality of this era to even consider! ;)

Bradley:

See posts #53-#55 of the "Beyond Tom Morris" thread! ;)

As far as Reginald Beale's input into American agronomy talk to me about Hugh Wilson's "agronomy letters". As far as the English heathlands were concerned, Beale or any other seed merchant extant at that time (he worked for Carter's) may've been seminal as seeding may've been a breakthrough happenstance of the English heathlands which apparently hasn't yet occured to a researcher like Tom MacWood.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 02:13:55 AM »
"Mr. Anderson,
Interesting questions and obviously ones you are interested in.  So why not do the research yourself and let us know what you find out?"


David Moriarty:

Interesting questions indeed, and questions that prove you and Tom MacWood are too dense on the reality of this era to even consider! ;)

T ;) m,

Are going to follow me from post to post to insult me?  If so, why don't you give me a cover-all insult and I'll just include it in all my posts?   Or perhaps you should reconvene your "posse?"  I'd hate to see you overburdened.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 02:24:08 AM »
"T ;D m,

Are going to follow me from post to post to insult me?"



David Moriarty, I don't even have any idea who you are but ANYONE who says the consistently arrogant and preposterous things under some name, as you have, then yes, I will continue to insult those kinds of posts and remarks.

The good news is there doesn't seem to be anyone on this website like you!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2008, 02:29:12 AM »
"T ;D m,

Are going to follow me from post to post to insult me?"

David Moriarty, I don't even have any idea who you are but ANYONE who says the consistently arrogant and preposterous things under some name, as you have, then yes, I will continue to insult those kinds of posts and remarks.

The good news is there doesn't seem to be anyone on this website like you!  ;)

;) mP,

You are on to me.  Moriarty is a pseudonym.  My real name is Gern Blanston. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2008, 02:44:19 AM »
Whatever.

The name is of no interest to me on these posts, only what's said! Believe me, David Moriarty, I have no idea who you are nor do I care!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2008, 02:47:18 AM »
;) m,

Great, then you can stop following me around the boards harassing me.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 03:01:31 AM »
Harass?

Is it possible a response to a post can harass it?  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2008, 03:06:34 AM »
Harass?

Is it possible a response to a post can harass it?  ;)

;) m,   I said, stop harassing me.  Not "it," me.  It is now 3 a.m. your time.  Surely you have something better to do than follow me around trying to harass me?  Why don't you go mow your field or something?

 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2008, 11:45:14 AM »
Bradley:

Please keep the thoughts you expressed on your initial post going. I feel that this website HAS JUST GOT TO START CONSIDERING this subject. I've thought that for years but noone seems interested in picking up on it and discussing it and developing it.

I really can't imagine why other than it isn't specifically about golf architecture. But you are just so right to say a lot of what was going on back in that day wasn't specifically about golf architecture it was about trying to figure out how to grow decent grass for golf on various types of sites and soil structures and soil makeup. If people on here can't figure out how seminal that was to those people back then and to the architecture to follow I doubt they ever will come remotely close to understanding the real history of that time and what was really going on both in their minds and on the ground.

Go for it Bradley, this is the very thing you are so good at----we've talked about this off this DG!

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2008, 12:12:59 PM »
Tom MacWood was right when he wrote that the seeding of Sunningdale was done at a great cost. And it is very interesting that much of Reginald Beale's writings that I have read address that very issue.

Beale's defense of the cost factor was in the time that seed allowed a golf course to played. He proved that if a golf course was seeded in late summer, it could be open for play the following spring. This allowed the club to generate revenues in less than one year. Whereas with the use of turves of sod, it could take three years before a club could be playable. And during that three year grow in process, the club was spending money on maintenance and upkeep. So Beale proved that the cost of sod actually saved money overall.

Why is that important to the development of golf? Because I think it made it a much less risky enterprise for a group of people to form a club and commit to development.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 01:06:04 PM »
Bradley

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Sunningdale may be important but other clubs opened inland courses well before Sunningdale.

Also let’s not forget that we are talking about a club that spent a massive amount of money creating their course. English clubs with their own class system were not short of money, so I do not believe that there was any real risk.

It has its place but I would not label it as important.  As money and different sites became available due to the demand for new golf courses, challenges had to be overcome. This is just one of those challenges. It does not mark the beginning or end, just the game being shape to suite different environments encountered in different locations.

The growth of our knowledge and technology over the last 150 years has been nothing short of miraculous. The last 50 years of the 19th Century saw a massive leap forward. This continued to accelerate into the 20th Century.

Let’s understand it for what it is/was.

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 01:07:32 PM »
"Why is that important to the development of golf? Because I think it made it a much less risky enterprise for a group of people to form a club and commit to development."


Bradley:

Of course I cannot be sure of this without a ton more research, agronomic and otherwise, but it definitely could've also been that the likes of Park and Beale were at the beginning of promising a type of playability and conditioning never before seen or experienced in the 2-3 decades since golf and architecture had first emigrated out of the Scottish linksland to INLAND sites around GB and even in America!

I really do have a certain sense that the English heathlands was a massive "breakthrough" for golf and architecture AND AGRONOMY to come around the world, particularly on INLAND sites.

The interesting thing, however, is almost a decade later when the likes of Macdonald, and Wilson and Crump faced their agronomic problems on their primary projects (NGLA, Merion and Pine Valley) that were frankly of massive proportions they did not exactly look abroad, they looked to their own US Dept of AGRICULTURE!

Another interesting thing is the two guys they turned to (Piper and Oakley) didn't know anything about golf grass in the beginning----they were basically into forage crops and botany.

But over the next two decades they sure did, all together, figure it out!


PS:
Bradley: Hugh Wilson constantly sent soil samples, grass samples etc on the night train from Philly to D.C. and the US Dept of Agriculture to be analyzed. In one letter Piper mentioned to Wilson that he'd just received a cigar box full of soot from Wilson with no instructions, and asked what was he supposed to do with it? Wilson shot back a letter to him the next day that said; "Please analyze it for fertilizer!"    :o
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 01:14:16 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 09:28:27 PM »
Tom,

I enjoyed your piece on the pioneer golf course architects.

You indicated that Sunningdale was the first golf course to be entirely seeded, and that seems to be a dividing line in your research between the pioneer architects era, and the golden age that followed. May we say then that the availability of golf course seed was what allowed the post-pioneer architects to be more creative with shaping the land, particularly on inland golf courses, to provide more strategy in design?

I ask this question for my own clarification, because if it is so, then the men who pioneered the agronomic side of golf's development might have been as instrumental in furthering the game as the golden age architects that we all know and love.

Could you devote your next essay to those men who wrote the grassing specifications for the golden age golf courses? As a greenskeeper, I am as fascinated by their story as I am by all of the great names that we associate with the development of golf. But the stories surrounding golf's formative agronomy is much more difficult to uncover.

My guess is that if you researched this aspect of golf's development, you will find a cast of characters who are quite colorful and interesting. And this is a missing piece of the puzzle that will help us all better understand the game.

Bradley
I agree with you about the importance of the subject. These seed and grass men have been largley ignored and they did play a very important role in the development of golf architecture. You can not fully appreciate the early history of golf architecture (especially after 1900) without understanding the influence of Carters, Suttons and the rest of the seed merchants.

It is also interesting to note, if you believe an important turning point was Sunningdale, the chain of events. The house builders (Roberts) engaged the golf course maker (Park) who then turned to the seed men (Carters). Thats how it started. The second major project of a course being completely sown was Walton Heath, three years later. Sunningdale and Walton Heath were both Carters projects.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 09:49:03 PM »
Tom,

Do you know if Carters was an English company?

Have you ever found anything in your research about how they harvested the seed they sold, or where their source of seed was from?

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2008, 10:20:32 PM »
The Scotsman has every issue of the paper digitized since 1817. Very impressive. It is expensive for individuals to get access to the archives, but it is available.

Click here for the Scotsman archives

Tom, it is good to have you back.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
False history gets made all day, any day, the truth of the new is never on the news.
 --Adrienne Rich

Thomas MacWood

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2008, 10:21:22 PM »
Yes, it was an English company. James Carters founded the company in 1804. He was succeeded by his friend EJ Beale. EJ Beale was the father of Reginald and Gilbert Beale.

I have not found where they harvested their seed but I'll keep my eyes open.

Dan
Thank you
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 11:21:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2008, 11:09:49 PM »
Tom

A second to Dan King's salutation.

Were late Victorian / Edwardian builders the first to analyze inland soil compositions, in particular heathland soils, and the proper way to grass them? Was there any received wisdom that held back earlier attempts at heathland courses, or any beliefs or practices about the "preparation" of heathland soils that later turned out untrue but for a time doomed grassing attempts?

Kind regards
Mark

Thomas MacWood

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2008, 11:48:02 PM »
Mark
It is my impression the early golf architects preferred inland sites that were already covered with grass. I doubt many of them spent much time studying the suitablility of the site, although I'm sure there were exceptions. That is a good question about what prior bad experiences on the heathland. I suspect the lack of existing grass might have scared most of them. But there were certainly courses built on heathland prior to Sunningdale. Fowler thought Woking was the turning point, he considered it the first heathland course, several years before Sunningdale. Of the important courses of that era the details of Woking development is largley a mystery ( to me at least). What exactly was Tom Dunn faced with at Woking and when did Stuart Paton begin to make his revolutionary changes.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 12:05:43 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2008, 12:04:34 AM »
Tom,

Do you know if Carters was an English company?

Have you ever found anything in your research about how they harvested the seed they sold, or where their source of seed was from?

Have you read Piper and Oakley's  Turf for Golf Courses, originally published in 1917?  It is the same book that contained Hugh Wilson's description of the NGLA visit, which has been completely misunderstood for all these years.  It is online at Google Books. 

I think it will point you in the right direction regarding most of your questions. I am out of my element on agronomy issues, but P&O seems pretty thorough.  Creeping bent came from Germany, Rhode Island Bent from New England .  Red Fescue from New Zealand.  Etc.

Again according to P&O, J.B. Olcott was one of the pioneers in America regarding turf, studying turf at the Connecticut Experimental Station from 1885 to 1910.  There he had a turf garden with over 500 strains of grasses selected from thousands.

He also discusses Fred W. Taylor of Philadelphia who studied turf grass from 1904 to 1915, and built 4 greens at a "new" Philadelphia course.   I think someone wrote or implied that Taylor built some of Merion's greens, but to my eye the description of his methods used by P&O do not match the description provided by Hugh Wilson.

So there were
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2008, 01:45:49 AM »
Beale's defense of the cost factor was in the time that seed allowed a golf course to played. He proved that if a golf course was seeded in late summer, it could be open for play the following spring. This allowed the club to generate revenues in less than one year. Whereas with the use of turves of sod, it could take three years before a club could be playable. And during that three year grow in process, the club was spending money on maintenance and upkeep. So Beale proved that the cost of sod actually saved money overall.


Bradley thanks for starting this thread, but can you clarify or re-edit this paragraph as I'm guessing you missed a word out somewhere, or I'm just to dim to understand you point.  Thanks.

Hello Tom.
Let's make GCA grate again!

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2008, 08:34:52 AM »
"It is also interesting to note, if you believe an important turning point was Sunningdale, the chain of events. The house builders (Roberts) engaged the golf course maker (Park) who then turned to the seed men (Carters). Thats how it started. The second major project of a course being completely sown was Walton Heath, three years later. Sunningdale and Walton Heath were both Carters projects."


Personally, I've felt for a few years now that this particular aspect was huge, JUST HUGE, to those back then and what it showed for the future of golf. I think the likes of us on this website have only ever given it a passing glance never really understanding the underlying significance of it not just to golf but also to golf architecture certainly including timing aspects of it.

How little understood it really was also seems to be evidenced by the events with golf agronomy on both sides of the Atlantic for at least the next two decades. Let's just say it was anything BUT an exact science (plenty of fundamental disagreements on processes and materials) and it probably still is to some extent!  ;)
 
 

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