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Thomas MacWood

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2008, 07:43:38 AM »
TE
I'll try to respond to a few things you wrote.

I have been to Philadelphia but I don't think that is important. It is not necessary to physically go to the site of the story. It can be helpful no doubt, but the most important factor is where can you access the information - in this day and age that could be Far Hills, Columbus or LA. The essay on Alison in Japan is a good example. And occasionally it is an advantage not being too close to the situation, you are not as likely to prejudiced by local traditions and stories.

As far not approaching the club I can only speak for myself. I was not writing about Pine Valley my essay was about George Crump. I don't believe PV or any organization speaks for Mr. Crump. I would have been great to be afforded access to internal club information but when you have someone who portraits himself as Mr. Pine Valley constantly brow beating you on the Internet, you come to the conclusion access is not going to happen. That may have been my mistake, because in the end it was clear you did not speak for that club.

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2008, 08:41:30 AM »
Tom MacWood:

By what you are saying about Moriarty's research, I'm only trying to understand why he apparently thinks he's entitled to see any material that some of us have seen from Merion. It's pretty hard to miss he seems to feel entitled to it or perhaps you haven't read any of these threads. A number of contributors on here are trying to figure out as well why he seems to feel this way, and I suspect Merion may be as well.

As far as what you said about discrediting me or anything I did regarding Pine Valley, I can't imagine what you're talking about.

My issue with you back then, and Wayne's issue about Crump's suicide was that if you were going to suggest that on here that you prove it. Eventually you did prove it, but the way you went about that was something I did not at all agree with and I still don't.

You both:

1. Duped a township official into discussing this without first telling him why you were interested in the subject. The man was completely furious with you for doing that and there is no way under the sun you can avoid that fact or dismiss it, not back then, not now, not ever. Of course, you can just continue to shirk your own responsiblity for that by trying to blame it on me somehow but that won't ever work and that township official is there to support that fact.

2. You did not even have the decency to get in touch with Pine Valley at all about your intentions to write about the suicide of the man that created the place----not with anyone there, not with John Ott or anyone to do with Pine Valley. The only reason he knew anything of it is through me, and he did read GOLFCLUBATLAS.com. But you never even spoke to him about it before it was emailed to him which I helped both of you arrange. You spoke to noone there and I've always thought that was very much the wrong way to go about it.

But really the most ludicrous thing of all is that last post of yours where you continue to criticize me while telling this website what a pleasant surprise it was that John Ott got in touch with you and asked you to come to Pine Valley.

Again, you've never been here and you know none of these people. I do. They are my years long friends. Has it really somehow escaped you all these years that John Ott, the Mayor of Pine Valley, who lived alongside the 9th fairway of Pine Valley for about thirty seven years before he died suddenly last fall, was one of my very best friends, and certainly one of my best friends in golf since I came here over thirty five years ago? We had a whole lot of experiences together in golf over those decades and in the last ten years or so it was just strengthened when I developed this interest in architecture, particularly Pine Valley's, and helped him develop his own interest in it far more than he ever had before and certainly including all the historic architectural details of Pine Valley.

John Ott posted on here a few times over the years but whenever he read this site, particularly if it was about Pine Valley, he was always on the phone with me about it. After you wrote that essay, and sent it to John Ott which I helped to arrange, I told you I thought it was a very good essay the way you treated the subject and that I said that is on a number of posts on here from back then. I feel from our rather unfortunate experiences in that whole thing that your mind was changed from writing about it in a way that explained Crump was being glorified in some attempt to minimize Colt. That attitude of yours is also very evident on the threads on the back pages of this website. You even threatened to write and essay about a researcher being beset upon by a bunch of maniacs out to stop him. Do you deny you said that to me?

But the point is John Ott never did anything with anyone from this website without speaking to me about it. That was our arrangement with this website. Ask anyone about that. Ask Tommy Nacarrato. He called me up and asked me if I thought he should invite you to Pine Valley and I told him of course he should--why not? He said he would do it but only if I came down and played with you with him.

It is mindboggling to me that you just don't seem to get any of this, or else you just conveniently dismiss it and for what really?

You had an open invitation and for whatever your reasons you never acted on it. You just let it slide and now it's gone and so is John. I sit here in my office surrounded by some of his framed aerial photos of Pine Valley which he loved so much and loved to analyze with me so much and which we got from the Hagley went I introduced him to that resource. I sit here in my office surrounded by most of John's silverware and glassware he won over the years in tournaments at Pine Valley, particularly his medalist silver plate for the Crump Cup. For that reason and other reasons a day can't go by when I don't think of him and all that we did together.

But yet you continue to criticize me and make fun of my life and interests to do with golf and architecture here, never understanding what that connection to you with a John Ott was really about. In your on-going snobbish and arrogant attitude about your research ability you even make fun of my own life and my family's in a world once surrounded by A/C architecture and that time and place. You poke fun at it calling it some "Holliday Inn Express" mentality.

I've never even understood the significance of my own family in some of these things until perhaps a decade ago and some of it was discovered through my interest in the history of golf course architecture and all the ancillary things that entailed. I admit I'm very proud of what I've found out about them and about it all and it fairly disgusts me that someone like you who doesn't even have the motivation to come and see it and understands it continues to insult me and my own family's history.

Someone on one of these posts said; "WE GET IT, you don't like each other". They were talking about you and Moriarty and me, I guess. They're right, I think the both of you are pretty despicable in the way you've treated this town, the memory of people in golf from this town, and some of the current members of some of these clubs, and others who love the architecture of this area.

But I'm the eternal optimist---maybe one of these days that insulting, immature and arrogant attitude of the two of you will change and then things can be different someday. I guess we'll have to just wait and see about that, but not until, that's for sure!

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2008, 08:59:24 AM »
"TE
I'll try to respond to a few things you wrote.

I have been to Philadelphia but I don't think that is important. It is not necessary to physically go to the site of the story. It can be helpful no doubt, but the most important factor is where can you access the information - in this day and age that could be Far Hills, Columbus or LA. The essay on Alison in Japan is a good example. And occasionally it is an advantage not being too close to the situation, you are not as likely to prejudiced by local traditions and stories.

As far not approaching the club I can only speak for myself. I was not writing about Pine Valley my essay was about George Crump. I don't believe PV or any organization speaks for Mr. Crump. I would have been great to be afforded access to internal club information but when you have someone who portraits himself as Mr. Pine Valley constantly brow beating you on the Internet, you come to the conclusion access is not going to happen. That may have been my mistake, because in the end it was clear you did not speak for that club."






It's not that it may've been your mistake, it was your mistake. It has nothing to do with me----going to the club first is simply the decent thing to do, in my opinion, but obviously you have some other ideas about that over which I will always disagree with you.

Of course I don't speak for these clubs. I'm really not sure why people such as you and Moriarty suggest such a thing. But what neither of you seem to understand and appreciate is so many of these people from these clubs are my friends built up over many years in golf and also an interest in architecture. I guess for that reason and others they just trust me in some of these things. Perhaps I shouldn't even expect that you two would understand things like that as maybe you've never experienced these kinds of things and what they really mean. In many ways and perhaps somewhat in retrospect it becomes apparent that this is just all part of the beauty of golf and what-all it can do.

But you two can sit out there in your little research Ivory Towers and have no part of it. You can even rationalize that the way you do it avoids prejudices and such but, I, for one, am never going to buy any of your type of rationalizations. To really understand these subjects and their histories you really do have to live them and I think that's been shown in what has happened with this essay of Moriarty's which you apparently reviewed for him and approved of.

It interests me what you put on here today about the benfits of revisionism in history, and I'll certainly consider it. But revisionism is in no way synonymous with specious reasoning and poor scholarship and that is what "The Missing Faces of Merion" is, in my opinion, and seemingly now in the opinions of a pretty good number of other people.

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2008, 09:12:50 AM »
"I was not writing about Pine Valley my essay was about George Crump."



What a really remarkable thing to say!

You were writing about Crump, and not Pine Valley?? And your essay is entitled "George Crump, Portrait of a Legend", and you were not writing about Pine Valley?

Maybe you really do need to come to these places which become some of your subjects and try to understand them even half as well as I do.

To me, in large part Pine Valley is George Crump and George Crump was Pine Valley. I think if you ever bothered to come there, even once, even you might be able to at least sense this and come to understand it! That's why he was considered and can be considered a "legend" in golf architecture. How has that escape even you?

He did not become a legend because he was a decent golfer or because he was a fairly successful hotlier or because he truly was a nice and generous man. He became a legend because of what he did at Pine Valley. Crump and Pine Valley always were and always will be inextricably intertwined. How anyone who understands anything about either could not understand that is simply beyond me.

Honestly, Tom MacWood, this is just another example of why I must be right in what I've always said about you----you're a good raw researcher but you just have so little feel or understanding for what your research material really means!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 09:19:20 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2008, 09:55:44 AM »
TE
I don't agree with your recollection of events but I have no interest in rehashing them. I will only say that the subject of my essay was George Crump. It was not an essay on PV. I was not an essay on his suicide.

I also disagree with the idea that an independent author needs to gain permission from a golf club, a goverment entity, family ancesters, religious organizations or any other group who may have been associated with a historical subject before writing about the subject.  We will just have to agree to disagree on that.

If you don't like the way these histories have been presented you should write your own account, and let the chips fall where they may. Your constant review of these extraneous events is not very productive IMO. Move on to something more productive. There have been dozens of subjects you have expressed an interest in writing about, pick one and write about it. I think everyone would appreciate your knowledge and analysis.

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2008, 10:06:35 AM »
Tom MacWood:

We do need to agree to disagree. I disagree with a number of the ways you go about things and I disagree with them very strongly.

Of course another account should be written about some of these things, including the creation of Merion East, and as you know that is what we are in the midst of doing.

In my opinion, we should do it to show just how wrong "The Missing Faces of Merion" really is. We don't want people with limited information believing that essay.

But in the meantime I see nothing at all wrong with people like me giving my opinion on the things I believe I know about the club and course. If someone like David Moriarty thinks this should all be treated like a court of law including some form of "legal discovery" then let him feel that way but he isn't going to restrict me to that odd demand of his on here.

On this website we deal in OPINION!

I know his and I know yours and you both know mine and that's the way it should be for people reading this website.



"Your constant review of these extraneous events is not very productive IMO. Move on to something more productive."

I do not agree at all with your opinion on that either.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 10:10:17 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2008, 10:46:57 AM »
" I will only say that the subject of my essay was George Crump. It was not an essay on PV. I was not an essay on his suicide."


"I was not an essay on his suicide??"   ::)

What does that mean? Did you mean to say you were not an essay or it was not an essay on his suicide or it was an essay on his suicide?  Maybe sentences like that are the reason even you don't seem to understand some of the things you say in what you write.

Your essay was not an essay on Pine Valley??   ???

All anyone has to do is read the essay and they can't help but notice probably more than half the essay is on exactly that----eg PINE VALLEY---THE GOLF COURSE!

But still you try to tell me and us that the essay was NOT on PINE VALLEY??  Jeesus, Man, it really would help if you understood some of the things YOU write!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 10:48:37 AM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2008, 11:47:35 AM »
Tom Paul,

How dare you suggest that coming to you in the past has ever been an option.  I have tried to cooperate with you off-line a number of times, and as soon as the "cooperation" doesn't go exactly as you dictate you become rude, obstreperous, dishonest, incredibly insulting, and even threatening.   Like a spoiled child who has never been told "no."  Your intention has never been to help, but to dissuade me from pursuing my interest in Merion.   

As for Wayne, I have tried to cooperate with him despite his past rudeness and brow beating.  He was all for cooperation when it came to asking for and receiving my research and when it came to me explaining the significance of much of the events dealing with the property.   But he showed his true colors as soon as he finally bothered to look at the MCC documents; he cut off all cooperation and communication!   He has not even had the integrity to send me documents that he told me, in writing, that he would send.

I cannot work with people who view "cooperation" as a one way street, and will not even honor their word on something as simple as this. 

As for whether or not you speak for Merion, here is what you said above:

"I have been informed that you do not speak for Merion.  Yet you continue to posture as if you do."


I would suggest, David Moriarty, that you might want to REcheck your information! I know you don't understand that idea and you certainly don't like it but the fact is you'll probably just have to deal with it! :) 

Now, to Tom MacWood you say, "Of course I don't speak for these clubs."

So why did you just try to imply that you did?  "REcheck your information!"  This is typical for you.   Put the spin on it you want to put on it whether it is true or not.   Imply much more than is actually true.  It happens again and again. 

If these people are your friends, then why do you continue to embarrass them?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 11:50:46 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2008, 11:59:00 AM »
"Tom Paul,
How dare you suggest that coming to you in the past has ever been an option.  I have tried to cooperate with you off-line a number of times, and as soon as the "cooperation" doesn't go exactly as you dictate you become rude, obstreperous, dishonest, incredibly insulting, and even threatening.   Like a spoiled child who has never been told "no."  Your intention has never been to help, but to dissuade me from pursuing my interest in Merion."



Are you shitting me Man?

Less than six weeks ago I wrote you a few emails offering to cooperate and collaborate with you on a really good piece about the life and times of Charles Blair Macdonald other than just his architecture!!

And what happened with that?

You declined!!!

Are you going to deny that now???

Would you like me to put those emails on here to show how either delusional you are or what a liar you are?

You are just way off the reservation Moriarty and getting farther off it with every post. Keep that up and I doubt you'll ever get any cooperation or satisfaction from anyone.

And what are you doing all this for anyway? It looks like all that concerns you now is figuring out another way to embarrass me on your next post. You can't embarrass me Moriarty so why do you keep trying to do that?



As for why Wayne doesn't want to cooperate with you nor apparently does anyone else around here just look at yourself in the mirror and go back and read all your posts to do with Merion even from years ago. No one can help but notice your complete arrogance in all of them that no one could be right about anything but you. I think you better get yourself some independent medial help before your histrionics get even worse. When it comes to your attitude on this website on all the threads you've ever been on there is such a thing called "Human Nature" that just really turns people off on you but apparently you can't even see that.

I'll say it on here---I will cooperate and collaborate with you on a really good piece on the life and times of Charles Blair Macdonald and what all it means that has not been explored before but first you really will need to stop this garbage you've been spewing at us practically from the first day you came onto this site. The remarkable thing is you seem to be about the only one this site has ever seen this way.

So what about that? Do you want to do it, do you want to accept my offer to cooperate and collaborate on that piece, or are you going to really show your true colors?

   
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 12:11:29 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Request for Tom MacWood
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2008, 12:01:17 PM »
"Tom Paul,
How dare you suggest that coming to you in the past has ever been an option.  I have tried to cooperate with you off-line a number of times, and as soon as the "cooperation" doesn't go exactly as you dictate you become rude, obstreperous, dishonest, incredibly insulting, and even threatening.   Like a spoiled child who has never been told "no."  Your intention has never been to help, but to dissuade me from pursuing my interest in Merion."



Are you shitting me Man?

Less than six weeks ago I wrote you a few emails offering to cooperate and collaborate with you on a really good piece about the life and times of Charles Blair Macdonald other than just his architecture!!

And what happened with that?

You declined!!!

Are you going to deny that now???

Would you like me to put those emails on here to show how either delusional you are or what a liar you are?

You are just way off the reservation Moriarty and getting farther off it with every post. Keep that up and I doubt you'll ever get any cooperation or satisfaction from anyone.

And what are you doing all this for anyway? It looks like all that concerns you now is figuring out another way to embarrass me on your next post. You can't embarrass me Moriarty so why do you keep trying to do that?

   


Yes, put that email on here.  I am sure Wayne will be interested in what you really think of his reasoning abilities. 

I declined because of our past dealings.   I want nothing to do with you.  Because of our past  dealings. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Request for Tom MacWood New
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2008, 12:14:05 PM »
"I declined because of our past dealings.   I want nothing to do with you.  Because of our past  dealings."

Fine then, you're going to have to continue to deal with me on here just like this then! Never say I didn't offer you a good alternative and you declined it!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 12:15:54 PM by TEPaul »

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