The Top 10 Course Breakthroughs of the 20th Century

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Phil,

The same question jumped out at me on those lists.

[Matt_Ward]

OK Gents:

One quick item for those to keep in mind -- I won't provide a "correct" listing if the course is not in the proper time frame.

AND I WILL NOT ANSWER OR REPLY TO THOSE WHO ONLY ANSWER IN PIECE MEAL FASHION. THAT'S THE WAY THIS GAME IS PLAYED.

GOT IT !!!!!!

One further note -- Golf World is the USA publication and they only listed American layouts for their answers.

Final comment on the game -- Adam C if you don't like the game try another trivia show on GCA.

A couple of quick replies to those who answered with complete listings ...

                                 Total correct # below
Jeff Mingay =                       5                         
Tom Doak =                         6
SPDB =                                5                   
Mark B =                              4    *Note: an answer applies to each decade !   
Rich G =                               0    *Only USA courses were listed
                     
*Please also realize I am going by the dates cited by Golf World when the respective courses opened. There are some interesting answers that many are missing thus far.

[Matt_Ward]

Geeze guys ...

I guess handling this trivia question was more demanding than US Open rough at Oakmont or Winged Foot.

A number of correct answers have been given but there are a few still to be had.

For those who can handle the challenge that is.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I could only see myself falling down to the level of Farnie with further answers and wanted to enjoy that nice, fat 5-nil margin.

Okay:

1900-09 = Pinehurst
1910-19 = Pine Valley
1920-29 = Cypress Point
1930-39 = ANGC
1940-49 = Dunes Golf & Beach
1950-59 = Oakland Hills
1960-69 = Desert Forest -- obligatory Red Lawrence entry
1970-79 = Oak Tree
1980-89 = TPC
1990-99 = Ocean Course Kiawah

This monkey's gonna bang out Julius Caesar by Monday!!!

[Ian Andrew]

1900-09:  National Golf Links
1910-19:  Pine Valley
1920-29:  Cypress Point
1930-39:  Augusta National
1940-49:  Peachtree
1950-59:  Oakland Hills
1960-69:  Harbour Town
1970-79:  Muirfield Village
1980-89:  Shadow Creek
1990-99:  Sand Hills

[Mike Policano]

'00-09. Oakmont
'10-19 Pine Valley
'20-29 Cypress Pt
'30-39 Augusta National
'40-49 Peach Tree
'50-59 NCR
'60-69 Harbor Town
'70-79 Muirfield Village
'80-89 TPC Sawgrass
'90-99 Sand Hills

[Rich Goodale]

Matt

Your initial post made no mention of this being a North America only list.  Did you forget to put on the coffee after you woke up that morning, buckaroo, or were your olfactory nerves damaged?

Rich

[Mike Hendren]

1990-1999

Donald Steel's pond on The Eden Course.

Yeah - that's it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Okay, team, who knows:
triangulation
Sudoku
Triangulatory golf sudoku
Bayesian statistics
when the moon is in the 7th house of St Andrew

Whenever Matt Ward responds, you've got to piece together which courses must be right from our lists.  Then we'll just hammer away, switching out one course at a time.  Eventually we will either break Enigma or figure out this anti-global course list!

Signed
Shakespeare's pygmy marmoset

[Thomas MacWood]

The problem with an exercise like this is that it is too limiting.

It does not account for major regional breakthroughs. Hirono had a huge impact in Japan, as did Hunewood in South Africa and Royal Melbourne in Oz.

You could make the case that 1900s had Sunningdale, NGLA, Princes, Walton Heath, GCGC, Alwoodley, Huntercombe, Westward Ho! (redsign) and Woking (redesign). How useful is it to pick out one of these courses as THE breakthough?

Despite the limitations, these questions are still fun.

[mark chalfant]

1900-    Myopia
1910-    Toronto GC
1920-    Bel Air
1930-    Prairie  Dunes
1940-    Peachtree
1950-    NCR
1960-    Desert Forest
1970-    Oak  Tree
1980-    Firethorn
1990-    Sand  Hills

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

Mark makes a great point with his post.  Why even start an exercise like this when all you will reveal is how many I have right?  This could go on for pages and pages and I doubt it will keep the interest that long....and thats a shame because it is an interesting exercise, just don't agree with the m/o.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Mark C

Toronto and Bel Air: let's hear your argument for inclusion.

Kalen and Tom Mac

I actually like Matt's approach as it is solicitous of our thinking first. Once we've thought it through for ourselves we will be better equipped to understand the Golf World list.

I for one have spent the better part of a week pondering the meaning of Red Lawrence and Bruce Devlin. That the product of those thoughts largely is a blank probably says more about the poverty of the mind in question rather than the subjects of those thoughts.

So, are y'all gonna talk, or fish?

Mark

[Jim Nugent]

Guys, if Matt's tallies are accurate, we know for sure that 5 and only 5 of the following 7 are correct:

1910-19.....NGLA
1930-39.....ANGC
1940-49.....Peachtree
1950-59.....Oakland Hills
1960-69.....Harbour Town
1980-80.....TPC Sawgrass
1990-99.....Sand Hills

We know exactly one of the following three is correct:

1900-09.....Oakmont
1920-29.....Pebble Beach
1970-79.....Muirfield Village

We also know that Mark Bourgeois has at least one correct that Doak does not.  So between Doak and Mark there are at least seven correct answers. 

Matt's hints suggest no one has come up with some of the courses.

Afraid that's the end of my input on this.   

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

The reason behind the "rules" chosen is to make people think about the entire list -- not just cherry pick off with random pot shot answers for individual courses. I never said it would be easy but if you really discern my total correct response answers you can piece thing together if you really try instead of whine.

Gents:

There are a few correct answers already given - yet, there are a few courses that have not been mentioned as well.

Jim N:

Enjoyed your take -- but have to say you are walking through a paralysis by analysis review. Think about it.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I'll take a crack at it after some deducing off the others' answers and who I think got what correct (Of those graded so far):

1900-1909 = NGLA (Some including Ran have it as 08 or 09)
1910-1919 = Merion
1920-1929 = Pebble Beach (Tom)
1930-1939 = Augusta (Jeff, Tom, Mark)
1940-1949 = Dunes (SPDB, Mark)
1950-1959 = Oakland Hills (Jeff, Tom, SPDB, Mark)
1960-1969 = Harbour Town (Jeff, Tom, SPDB, Mark)
1970-1979 = Butler National
1980-1989 = TPC (Jeff, Tom, SPDB)
1990-1999 = Sand Hills (Jeff, Tom, SPDB)

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick, SPDB did not choose Sand Hills for 1990-99.  He chose Shadow Creek.  Matt's cryptic note to Mark B. hints Shadow Creek may be right, too. 

 

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick, SPDB did not choose Sand Hills for 1990-99.  He chose Shadow Creek.  Matt's cryptic note to Mark B. hints Shadow Creek may be right, too. 
 

Good Catch Jim.

Updated:
1900-1909 = NGLA (Some including Ran have it as 08 or 09) (Mark)
1910-1919 = Pebble Beach (1919 opening)
1920-1929 = Fisher's Island
1930-1939 = Augusta (Jeff, Tom, Mark)
1940-1949 = Peachtree (Jeff, Tom)
1950-1959 = Oakland Hills (Jeff, Tom, SPDB, Mark)
1960-1969 = Harbour Town (Jeff, Tom, SPDB, Mark)
1970-1979 = Muirfield (Tom, SPDB)
1980-1989 = TPC (Jeff, Tom, SPDB)
1990-1999 = Shadow Creek (SPDB)


With Pebble at 1919 instead (although Merion could be right too) and deducting that Cypress has been guessed and is wrong (I think) the 20's have quite a few options of golden age courses. Other possibilities include Riveria, Winged Foot, Seminole, LACC N., etc.

[Thomas MacWood]

1900-1909 = NGLA
1910-1919 = Pine Valley
1920-1929 = Cypress Point
1930-1939 = Augusta N
1940-1949 = Peachtree
1950-1959 = Oakland Hills
1960-1969 = Crooked Stick
1970-1979 = Muirfield V
1980-1989 = TPC
1990-1999 = Sand Hills

If NGLA falls into the 1910-19 era, then I'd substitute it for PV and add Garden City to the earlier era. I have feeling there may be a Ross or Tilly course in the 20s, but I'm not sure which one would be considered a breakthrough. Seminole?

[Phil_the_Author]

No Tom, Tilly didn't design Seminole! 

Actually, from a construction standpoint, though i doubt that is how this is being treated, both Baltusrol in the 20's and Bethpage in the 30's were groundbreaking projects.

Baltusrol because a course that had already hosted numerous US Opens and Amateurs was basically being plowed under to create two even better courses, yet that alone isn't the story. Tilly was given carte blanche to create them and then told that he only had to keep "18 holes open for play" at all times while doing so!

Bethpage was and remains the single largest golf course design and construction project of all time. Though there are places where more courses are part of the development, it is only at bethpage that three courses were designed and built concurrently on the same site, and in addition, a 4th course was redesigned and kept open for play throughout the project.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I wouldn't be completely shocked if Garden City was the entry for the Naughties even if National counts for that decade. It comes up a lot in the accounts of the day and must have played some kind of role in the development / education / support of a number of distinguished golfers and designers.

You would think a strong Ross possibility is No. 2. It probably would go in the 1930s, but could go in the 20s.

What course was his greatest engineering marvel?

Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Just one clue to set the record straight ...

Golf World listed NGLA as 1909 so it fist the first decade 1900-09.

The rest I will leave to the group to figure out.

[Allan Long]

1900-09:  National Golf Links
1910-19:  Pine Valley
1920-29:  Cypress Point
1930-39:  Augusta National
1940-49:  Peachtree
1950-59:  Oakland Hills
1960-69:  Harbour Town
1970-79:  Muirfield Village
1980-89:  TPC Sawgrass
1990-99:  Ocean Cse @ Kiawah (Since nobody has said it yet)

[Mark Bourgeois]

Only on GCA would blind devotion to the golden age cause lead folks to call copying other holes a "breakthrough"....

Senator McComb, can we see your list please?

Matt, how bout updating the scoring?

[Matt_Ward]

Mark B:

The most correct answers thus far is seven (7).

There are a few courses that have not been mentioned but you also have situations where by correct courses have been mentioned but the wrong time frames are applied.

I can't give anymore hints because the group is too quick to answer them in that fashion.

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