[Matt_Ward]

Once again -- another trivia contest.

Golf World featured a listing of the top 10 course breakthroughs in the 20th century with one course named for each specific decade.

In this contest I won't ID individual correct answers but I will provide a number of the correct ones you provide when you submit the entire list.

For example, if you answer three correct answers I will say you have named three of them. I just won't tell you which ones are correct until someone has successfully completed all ten. This will force people to think carefully about which ones are in and which ones are out.

No doubt it's more difficult in this manner but then again so are the major championships.

So before answering this please paste and copy the format below and fill in your specific answer after each decade.

Good luck ...

1900-09 =

1910-19 =

1920-29 =

1930-39 =

1940-49 =

1950-59 =

1960-69 =

1970-79 =

1980-89 =

1990-99 =

P.S. You must fill out a COMPLETE listing before I will tell you how many are correct. Do not attempt to answer only a few in the futile and feeble attempt to get me to tell you if such a listing has any correct ones.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting.

I presume "breakthroughs" mean revolutionary designs, which have a major impact on golf course architecture? Or does it mean a "new" course designer "breaking onto the scene" with a particular course?

OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, here are my thoughts on "breakthroughs"... meaning revolutionary designs, which have a major impact on golf course architecture, per decade:

1900-09 = Sunningdale; Willie Park Jnr.

1910-19 = National Golf Links of America; C.B. Macdonald

1920-29 = Royal Melbourne; Alister Mackenzie

1930-39 = Augusta National; Alister Mackenzie/Bobby Jones

1940-49 = Peachtree; Robert Trent Jones/Bobby Jones

1950-59 = Oakland Hills-South (redesign); Robert Trent Jones

1960-69 = Harbour Town; Pete Dye

1970-79 =

1980-89 = TPC Sawgrass; Pete Dye

1990-99 = Sand Hills; Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw

Again, this was completely OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD... it's amazing that similar names pop up. Mackenzie. Jones. Trent Jones. Dye. Very interesting.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I like nearly all of your guesses, but it isn't GOLF WORLD (UK), so I would expect the list to be uniformly American.  My best guesses:

1900-09:  Oakmont
1910-19:  National Golf Links
1920-29:  Pebble Beach
1930-39:  Augusta National
1940-49:  Peachtree
1950-59:  Oakland Hills
1960-69:  Harbour Town
1970-79:  Muirfield Village
1980-89:  TPC at Sawgrass
1990-99:  Sand Hills

[Dan Kelly]

Jeff:

I like nearly all of your guesses, but it isn't GOLF WORLD (UK), so I would expect the list to be uniformly American.  My best guesses:

1900-09:  Oakmont
1910-19:  National Golf Links
1920-29:  Pebble Beach
1930-39:  Augusta National
1940-49:  Peachtree
1950-59:  Oakland Hills
1960-69:  Harbour Town
1970-79:  Muirfield Village
1980-89:  TPC at Sawgrass
1990-99:  Sand Hills

Dang! That's what I was gonna say!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Good call on Oakmont. Though I'd favour Sunningdale on a globe level... especially with regard to what I think I know about Sunningdale out-of-the-gate versus Oakmont out-of-the-gate. Same goes for Royal Melbourne versus Pebble Beach.

Decent call on Muirfield Village as well, for the 1970s era. But can we say its design has had a major impact on golf course architecture at-large, like the courses we've agreed upon? I don't think so.

The question then, is: Which 1970s era course fits this bill?

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

The major influence of Muirfield Village was in establishing an architect who has built 300 more courses since.

And, I couldn't think of a course from that era that was really influential on what others have done since.  Too bad Harbour Town wasn't in the 1970's and we could have used something like Doral (abundance of water) as the 1960's contribution.

[SPDB]

I feel the same way about Jeff's guesses. Some other guesses.

1900-09 = Pinehurst
1910-19 = NGLA
1920-29 = Cypress Point
1930-39 = Bethpage
1940-49 = Dunes Golf & Beach
1950-59 =Oakland Hills
1960-69 = Harbour Town
1970-79 = Muirfield Village
1980-89 = TPC
1990-99 = Shadow Creek

[Mark Bourgeois]

Time for a good ole Dick Morris triangulation stragety:

1900-09 = National (Ran and others have it as 1909)
1910-19 = Pine Valley
1920-29 = Cypress
1930-39 = Augusta
1940-49 = Dunes
1950-59 = Oakland Hills
1960-69 = Harbour Town
1970-79 = No award given
1980-89 = Shadow Creek (for some reason GD has it at 1990, but everywhere else says 1989)
1990-99 = Bandon Dunes

Mark

[Sam Morrow]

How about Oak Tree for the 70's contribution?

[JR Potts]

Or Butler National for the 70s'

[Mike Nuzzo]

I hope Tom's correct on all 10.

I say Matt gives Howie Mandell a run for his money.

Cheers

[Jim Nugent]

I like Doak's, with two changes.  1900-09 = NGLA.  1910-19 = Pine Valley

[Sean_A]

According to Bahto, NGLA opened for member play in 1910.  However, if it were to be considered a pre 1910 course, what do folks think about Lido having a shout for the 1910-1919 slot?

Ciao

[Phil_the_Author]

Sean,

According to Charles Blair McDonald the NGLA course opened for play on "The links were formally opened on Saturday, September 16th, 1911..."

This can be found on page 20 of "National Golf Links of America: Statement of Charles Blair Mcdonald" dated and signed by him on January 12th, 1912...

[Rich Goodale]

I'm going to assume that Tom Doak is wrong, and this is in fact GBI oriented, so......from the other side of the pond:

1900-09 =Royal Dornoch (Sutherland and Taylor)

1910-19 =Eden Course (Colt and Mackenzie)

1920-29 =Royal Portrush (Colt)

1930-39 =Ballybunion (Smyth/Simpson)

1940-49 =Turnberry (Mackenzie Ross)

1950-59 =(Truly the Dark Ages--somebody throw me a bone here!)

1960-69 =El Saler (Arana)

1970-79 =Enniscrone (Hackett)

1980-89 =Les Bordes (von Hagge)

1990-99 =Kingsbarns (Phillips and Parsinen)

[Sean_A]

Sean,

According to Charles Blair McDonald the NGLA course opened for play on "The links were formally opened on Saturday, September 16th, 1911..."

This can be found on page 20 of "National Golf Links of America: Statement of Charles Blair Mcdonald" dated and signed by him on January 12th, 1912...

Philip

I think you are referring to the official opening.  An informal tourney was held in July 1910 and apparently members were playing.  In any case, it doesn't matter as both dates are post 1909.

Rich, I think your list is very ambitious.  Even so, do you not think Muirfield with its unique routing doesn't deserve a mention as a Colt redo in the mid 20s?

Ciao

Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean

I thought about Lido, too! Possibly Riviera in the 1920s.

Rich

I like the call on Eden, although St George's Hill deserves a mention -- why Royal Dornoch and Portrush?  There are so many choices on the first and third decades...

Mark

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

There was nothing unique about Colt's Muirfield routing.  Pickeman et. al. did it 20+ years earlier at Portmarnock, as did Morris and Coombe at Royal County Down. What he did was very good, however, and it almost made my list.

Mark

I had to get Dornoch in somewhere, and I think that Taylor and Sutherland made some huge improvements to Morris' design.  Probably the first great re-modeling job.  I like Portrush as virtually a complete re-write of an already great course.  That took some cojones.

Rich

[Sean_A]

Sean

There was nothing unique about Colt's Muirfield routing.  Pickeman et. al. did it 20+ years earlier at Portmarnock, as did Morris and Coombe at Royal County Down. What he did was very good, however, and it almost made my list.

Mark

I had to get Dornoch in somewhere, and I think that Taylor and Sutherland made some huge improvements to Morris' design.  Probably the first great re-modeling job.  I like Portrush as virtually a complete re-write of an already great course.  That took some cojones.

Rich

Rich

You may be right concerning Portmarnock and Co Down, but either they did a crap job of it which neccesitated a change or someone decided that a loop within a loop wasn't such a great idea.  In any case, one couldn't be too upset at having Portrush & Dornoch on any list, but I do wonder how influential they were/are. 

Mark

I too think St Georges Hill deserves a shout for its housing component as a good model of compromise development.

Ciao

[Rich Goodale]

Sean

You should know by now that most of us don't have the time to really think through these massive questions in any depth.  I just wanted to provde another perspective.  As for Muirfield, I think that it's loop-de-doop was/is nothing special but has been implanted in our brains as being special just because some earlier golf writers chose to take that tack, and others followed, etc. ad infinitum.  Portmarnock certainly had and has interweaving-return to the clubhouse 9s.  I was there a few weeks ago.

Of course I don't really think that Dornoch is the biggest Breakthrough of the 1900-09 period, but I can't think off the top of my head of another signficant re-do of an already excellent course prior to 1904.

I think this thread (and others) would benefit greatly if we concentrated on discussing why we think certain things are true rather than why we think that what others think is crap.  I could dis all of Tom Doak's choices if I turned on my vitriol pump, but for what purpose?  I'd far rather have Tom tell us why he selected the 10 courses he did, and why were they more of a "brekathrough" than others of their age than try to get him in a nit picking contest.

Your favo(u)rite nitwit

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

Good points there. After Jeff and Tom put up their lists, its pretty much game over - at least on this side of the Atlantic!

Nevertheless, we beat onwards, boats borne against the wind...

I think of breakthrough's meaning essentially as influential + different.

So my question re Dornoch was directed at the influence side.

A few questions:
just how different + influential was The Dunes?
Do engineering marvels get / deserve most of the spots on the list?
At the end of the day, are we compiling a list of firsts, such as first integrated housing development, first "modern" routing, first inland wonder, etc?

Mark

[Adam Clayman]

I'm one who dislikes the dictation within Matt's rules. So, how about Hazeltine?

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan K - me too. I just didn't want to be a show-off.

This means nothing probably, but interesting how Oakmont starts the century and Sand Hills closes it out.

Also, that NGLA-Pine Valley choice seems the most interesting/debatable.

Also, was there an evolution at work or apparent there over the century? or a thesis-antithesis dynamic at work?  (probably not, more complicated and all that)

Peter

[Sean_A]

Sean

You should know by now that most of us don't have the time to really think through these massive questions in any depth.  I just wanted to provde another perspective.  As for Muirfield, I think that it's loop-de-doop was/is nothing special but has been implanted in our brains as being special just because some earlier golf writers chose to take that tack, and others followed, etc. ad infinitum.  Portmarnock certainly had and has interweaving-return to the clubhouse 9s.  I was there a few weeks ago.

Of course I don't really think that Dornoch is the biggest Breakthrough of the 1900-09 period, but I can't think off the top of my head of another signficant re-do of an already excellent course prior to 1904.

I think this thread (and others) would benefit greatly if we concentrated on discussing why we think certain things are true rather than why we think that what others think is crap.  I could dis all of Tom Doak's choices if I turned on my vitriol pump, but for what purpose?  I'd far rather have Tom tell us why he selected the 10 courses he did, and why were they more of a "brekathrough" than others of their age than try to get him in a nit picking contest.

Your favo(u)rite nitwit

Rich

Rich

Come on now, don't get yer nickers in a twist.  I am not disagreeing with you in terms of importance/quality of courses, I am questioning the routing of Portmarnock and Portrush being loops within loops.  I am not sure of the third 9 at Portmarnock, but the combination I played certainly didn't have a loop within a loop.  Maybe things have changed - I don't know.  The reasons I really like the Muirfield routing is because it returns to the house (I thought this was quite rare for a links at the time) and it eliminates similar wind for consecutive holes.  I do think this combination was a significant breakthrough especially for a high profile and it demonstrated that given the right plot of land, creative thinking could be put in practice for a routing. 

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

I noticed that both Jeff and Tom included Peachtree as the course for the 1940s; what specifically about that course represented a breakthrough in architecture? Not questioning its placement; I just don't know much about it, other than the involvement of Jones.

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