[Matt_Ward]

Had the pleasure in playing again the Banks Course at Forsgate (Monroe, Twsp. NJ) and it was a joy to behold the considerable effort and success they have had in bringing forward to the max possible the superb work by Charles "steam-shovel" Banks.

Time does not permit me to go at total length to describe the course but management, along with the efforts of architect Stephen Kay, have eliminated tons of extra trees that clogged the landscape and they did a brilliant job in restoring the full character of the 17th hole -- a Banks "biarritz" hole that plays 239 yards and has the full length of the green in comparable terms to what one sees with the 9th at Yale. The hole is indeed well done and adds, as I have said previously, to a quartet of par-3's that is only exceeded in the entire State of NJ by the likes of PV and quite possible as well with Plainfield.

For a layout that is still under 6,800 yards the compelling architexture found there would make any golf design junkie drool with anticipation !

I've posted the top 50 metro layouts and quite frankly Forsgate / Banks is vastly rated too low -- it needs to move up far more given the considerable work done there. In my personal listing of Jersey courses it would easily grab a top ten position.

[Mark Bourgeois]

What is the meaning of the horseshoe, Matt?

Thanks for the post.

[Bill Gayne]

Mark,

This is a picture of the horseshoe from the Forsgate website. www.forsgatecc.com

There was a thread not to long ago about horseshoe holes. I think Yeamens Hall also has one.

I played Forsgate about three or four years ago and it was a treat. I just don't see a lot of this type of architecture here in Virginia. The only Banks course in Virginia is Cavalier.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Note horseshoe to the left - it had inspiration from Forsgate.

Matt,
Did the Kay / RDC relationship start from one of the winter gatherings many moons ago?  They were both speakers one year.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I don't think that was the genesis -- the new ownership group - RDC is led by Chris Schiavone and while he did speak at the Essex County CC winter mtg which was held in 2005 I believe Chris had a very good idea on what the ultimate potential for Forsgate could be.

Trees have been eliminated which has really unclogged the playing and vista points.

You also have a massive improvement in the day-to-day turf side of things.

The issue w Forsgate is that it is lost between the Metro NYC area and the immediate Philadelphia section. Located off NJ Tpke exit 8A is easy to get to but it is removed from the core of either area just mentioned.

The horseshoe par-3 is a gem of a hole -- especially when the pin placement is located on the outer edges. Granted the shot is a short one and it's entirely fair. The best pin placement is center back -- just beyond the rim of the horseshoe. You can't be too aggressive or it's a fast bogey or worse.

Like I said previously, for a course that isn't 6,800 yards there's so much unique and compelling architecture and when I see the layout not even getting a scent of national exposure then I know that the overwhelming majority of raters are too budy chasing name architects and the upper tier pedigree layouts.

The Banks Course at Forsgate is indeed a gem worth playing when in the area and would easily make my top ten NJ listing and top 25 metro NYC area listing.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Matt

Never played it, but word on the street is it's been compromised by houses.

What say you?

Also, the horseshoe question: that feature makes me think its more than a feature, that it was the product of a philosophy about golf that differed from the mainstream.

Like golf as a game, as opposed to a sport.

See anything else out there different?  Get any downloads on the shoe during your visit?

Mark

[David Panzarasa]

Next to Plainfield and very few others, this is my favorite course in NJ. For me, it has the best approach shots hole for hole

[Bill Gayne]

Mark,

I don't remember houses encroaching on the Banks Course. I believe that the housing has a greater impact on the Palmer course.

[Gerry B]

i don't remember the houses being an issue either. the horseshoe is one of the great "shorts" in golf - what a green complex. i agree that there are not 39 courses better then the Banks course in the MGA

[Matt_Ward]

Mark B:

There is housing but it only impacts one's play on a few holes on the front nine and frankly is far from being intrusive to the time spent there. The houses do cut in for the length of the 6th hole and a portion near the 7th tee. The comments from Bill Gayne are spot on.

In regards to your comments on golf being a "game, as opposed to a sport." I take that to mean you believe there are goofy elements tied to the design and that good play is not sufficiently / consistently rewarded. That's not the case whatsoever.

As I said previously, credit management with bringing back to life so many design elements that made Banks the wonderful architect he was.

People often reference the back-to-back par-5 holes at Baltusrol / Lower -- IMHO, the two you find at Forsgate / Banks (8th & 9th) are even better holes design wise.

Gents:

One of the really superb additions to the restoration of the Banks Course was the added tee box at the closing hole. Now stretched to 450 yards the hole returns to the function it had prior to the spurt in technology for clubs / balls, etc, etc.

You need to get the tee shot to the top of the hill and the approach is stellar with the green handing in the air and sloped nicely from left to right and back to front. You also have a frontal bunker that is no less than 15 feet deep. A solid closing hole to a layout that provides a slew of interesting and fun elements.

If people read what Doak wrote about it in CG - the actual number I would give to the course now is at least one better.

[John Sabino]

Matt - I agree with you that the course is under-rated. The 8th hole, a long par five is probably the best on the course. The steamshovel must have been in full action when he designed it. The fairways slopes right to left severly the whole way to an elevated, two-tiered, very difficult green. The hole plays into the prevailing wind.

Forsgate's problem is that you are forced to take a cart before 3:00pm. It would be much more enjoyable if you could walk.

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

I didn't know about the mandatory cart rule. Would be interesting to find out if the facility would be open to having people use caddies - at least during weekdays. The added element of walking would only add to the overall experience.

By the way you are spot on regarding the 8th hole. I also am a big fan of the par-4 16th -- the green design there is reminiscent of the green at the 16th at Essex Cuonty CC in West Orange.

[Steve Hyden]

These pics of the Banks course were taken in 2005:

3, par 3, 190


8


17, par 3, 235


18 tee shot


18 approach

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

I'm a big fan of Forsgate, but, I think it's conditioning over the years is largely responsible for it being under rated.

In condition, it's a wonderful golf course.

The same for The Knoll and Essex County.
For years their poor condition hurt their rankings.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat Mucci:

The issue of notice goes way beyond the conditioning aspect.

Management at Forsgate and Essex County made a concerted effort to improve the layouts at both courses and this is helped immensely. For example, the photo provided of the 17th hole is not completely accurate to the superb job that architect Stephen Kay did in extending the biarrtiz hole to the front portion of the green which had been allowed to morph from putting surface into a fairway cut. Now, the hole plays as it was meant to be.

The rest of the course has also been strengthened with new tees added at the redan 7th and the closing hole has now plenty of muscle with it playing 450 yards.

Like I said previously, for a course that is still under 6,800 yards it packs plenty of compelling architecture and needs to be played by those who would enjoy what it offers.

However, the situation with The Knoll is much deeper in terms of overall neglect and has a far greater road to travel before it can legitimately say it is now back to its glory days. George Bahto is pushing for such things but the jury is still out in my book.

[Bill Gayne]

Steve, thanks for posting the pictures.



Matt or Steve,

Was the full front of the biarritz restored? I think it extended close to the brown grass in the picture. (Matt, I just fully read your post so ignore my question).

Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Many forget that at one time Forsgate had the largest single green in the world.

Poor conditioning hurts a golf course because the impression remains long after the course improves.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat, Bill, et al:

I don't doubt that generally conditioning plays a role but in the case of Forsgate the issue is one of notice -- especially by neglectful raters who spend toooooooo much time covering the same suspects over and over and over again. Those raters who simply visit the Merions, Pine Valleys, Winged Foots of the world do a major disservice to the clubs such as Forsgate which have made major strides forward.

When I see some of the courses in a top 100 rating or even a top 10 for each state I have to shake my head and wonder if some of these "raters" need a mapquest guide to other layouts which have great pedigree but have since been upgraded to reflect the reality of today's game / technology.

I've yet to meet a person who has been to the Banks Course at Forsgate recently and said the architecture there was not compelling to the level of national consideration.

Like I said before, Doak gave the course a "7" in CG and that was long before the work was done to bolster what was there. That should tell people plenty.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Other factors can't be ignored.

Some people complain, "how can they rate so many courses so high in a given area?"

With so many AWT, SR-CB courses in the area, some of their work gets pushed down, not because of the architecture but because of the volume.

While courses like ECCC and Forsgate have made great strides with conditioning, many who played both prior to the improvements, still context them in that category.

What's disturbing to me is the investment/reward message sent to other clubs.

ECCC and Forsgate should be rewarded for investing in their courses, not penalized for doing so.
This sends a bad message to clubs like The Knoll and others who may reconsider investing in the golf course, architecturally and/or agronomically.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Too many raters provide carte blanche assessments of given clubs and see them as automatic inclusions. For the ECCC and Forsgate's of the world that only serves to keep them off the radar screen as you mentioned.

The issue I have is a simple one -- people "in the know" should truly be "in the know." I've had the good fortune in playing all of the top tier Jersey clubs. Like I said before -- Doak gave Forsgate a 7 in CG BEFORE THEY MADE ANY IMPROVEMENTS.

If someone has not played the course recently then it's time for a re-visit. And should people see major deficiencies I'd like to hear them firsthand.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I think the reason that most people don't return to a course that suffered in the conditioning department is because they're unaware that the course has made substantive improvements.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

The reason is a bit more involved than that -- raters should be ever diligent to keep their ears and eyes open on the course front. Nothing stays the same -- look at what Augusta has done and what others like Oakmont and WF / West have done just on the tree front alone.

My issue is that the appropriate info sources are out there if people avail themselves.

The reality is that New Jersey is home to a number of stellar courses that are better than a number of the ones that often garner much of the praise. Raters have to delve a bit more beyond the "usual suspects." Fortunately, Doak when he wrote CG did that with a visit to Forsgate. It's beyond the number grade of 7 that he gave then.

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