lets talks specifics about Spanish Bay please!

[PThomas]

most - not all, just most, it seems - of the comments on GCA about SB are of this kind:  "so much more could have been done with the site"...yet most people don't offer up more specific thoughts on how the course could have been done better...maybe specifics have been discussed here before, but i can't recall them

i've only played there once, more than 10 years ago i thinkso my memories are somewhat vague,  and i would love to hear speciifc thoughts from others

fwiw, Tom D. gave it a 7 in his book (or a 5, if the sand dunes had to be played as free drop areas....is that still the case there?)

thanks in advance

[Mike Sweeney]

First off I love the first hole as a par 5. First time I played it, driver 5 wood, chip, putt for birdie and the dolphins swimming off shore gave me some love for the birdie, so what is not to love.

I like 18 more than most, but I understand the arguments about the left side grass/weeds/schrubs being a little too much. It is the holes 16 and 17 and maybe 15 where things get tight and awkward, so it is not a great finish. I don't know it well enough (2-3 plays) to say what I would have done differently. My guess is the lodge was on some great land as I love sitting in there after a round. It is a beautiful spot, and I prefer it to Pebble's Lodge view over 18.

[Jeff Tang]

I've played Spanish Bay one time in 2003 and I liked it.  My take on it, however, is that it looks a lot like a links course but doesn't really play like it.  Maybe it was just soft when I was there but there were not a lot of opportunities to run the ball on the greens or across slopes, etc.  The balls died fairly quickly in the fairways also.

I felt it was very penal in nature too with a lot of the native areas close to the fairways that made it difficult to keep the ball in play.  A lot of the other links courses I've played that make them fun to play is that a lot of times you can swing away off the tee and have your ball bounding down the fairway but I didn't get that same sense at SB.

I would agree with the finish getting fairly tight and crowded.  The proximity to the ocean, though, literally steps from the beach on some holes, really made it a cool place visually to play.

[Adam Clayman]

Paul, As the other thread poster called it "Target golf" it's hard to argue since most golf can be called target. However, considering the time that SB was conceived and built, most people associated links golf with target golf. With Marvin Davis running the company then, it's wonder it isn't a real abomination.
The shot demands can be high at SB, especially on those testing finishers. 15 calls for a controlled drive with some latitude for missing the perfect spot. Just not all that much. 17 is more forgiving but very similar, in a general sense. 16 was a better looking hole when the left bunker transitioned naturally into the dunescape.
18 was also a better hole when the left side approach was maintained as fairgreen.
12-14 might be my favorite stretch sans condos. The tumbling to the sea nature of the 14th was unique to the peninsula courses before the new Shore. I assume it has holes with that feel?
13 is a replica of the postage stamp and is subject to the winds aloft to play it well. The greensite on 12 is one of the best in the forest with it's fronting reparian and sectioned levels.

The journey is varied starting on the ocean and moving up into the forest around the hotel and back to the ocean.

I have a couple of stories about two major archies that interviewed for Marvin Davis. Pete wanted to move the road and Jack's design, non-negotiable. So, was Marvin's refusal.

Ten years ago SB played firmer. No doubt the new company has no clue about such sophisticated aspects of enjoyable golf.

[Paul Carey]

I like the course but:

When if first opened it was fescue in the fairways which played hard and fast as it was designed but the change over to rye (I think) has made the course very soft and it does not play like it should;

The waste/natural ares require drops which makes the fairly narrow corridors for a links course play that much narrower.  So you end up on this beautiful site with dunes yet it feels very cramped since the dunes are not in play.  I wonder if Tatum and Watson knew this when they first layed out the course?

It is good....very good but could be so much better.

[Bob_Huntley]

A blank canvas and yet the architects CREATED the areas from which the players have to take a drop. Sounds like a real cock-up to me.

Bob

[CJ Carder]

I enjoyed the course my one time around, but I'll agree that it plays nowhere near like it's supposed to.  I remember a couple of times being told to bounce my shot in here or run my shot in there only to see it take one bounce and stop or plug.

I have an inkling that the routing could have been done a little better to maximize the use of the coastline, but that's only an inkling - I don't have any real ideas as to how to make it better.  I just remember thinking that the one par 3 (I think #8) seemed really out of place - an all-carry shot over a marsh on a "links" course.

That said, I really like #2 and the first half of the back 9 heading out towards the water.

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, Faulting the architects because of a social movement to be environmentally sensitive, that came later, is not a fair fight.

If the areas were truly off limits, don't you think there would be piles of balls laying in the esa's?
 My advice, ignore them and play golf.

A funny story happened one night when some king or president of some obscure country was visiting. The secret service was urgently dispatched out to the 15th teeing are where some locals were looking for lost balls using flashlights. A bit of an over-reaction since I doubt many assassins use flashlights when trying to sneak up on their target.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I only played Spanish bay once, late 80s I think, it was pretty new, they had seeded everywhere with fescue but it looked as if it was struggling, apparently it is largely poa now. I thought the design and individual holes were pretty good and as far as I remember it was manufactured by looked pretty natural overall and would probably get even better in time as the plants/ shrubs grew. I clearly remember the first hole and the curving nature of it with choice carries to get home in two, so to remember that, a cute par 3 on the back nine, a Doak 7 seems fair.
I think SB suffers a bit from being the 4th best looking of 7 sisters, in a more ugly family maybe she'd have a higher wow factor, probably the solution is to drink more beer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A blank canvas and yet the architects CREATED the areas from which the players have to take a drop. Sounds like a real cock-up to me.

Bob,

I'm with you.

The location of the hotel comes into question.

Adam Clayman,

You've been a defender of the course since day one.
Needless to say, we've been at odds on a number of items.

To determine the merits of Spanish Bay, ask a simple question.

Given a hundred rounds on the Penisula, how many of them would be taken by Spanish Bay.

I'd take one.
Who sited the hotel, the investors, the architects or both.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I too have been a defender of Spanish Bay since day one, more or less.  Oh I certainly acknowledge it's likely the least great course inside the drive (although Poppy Hills would contend as well); and the prices they charge for it are ludicrous.  I also certainly understand the "what might have been" arguments that you and Bob give.  If Bob wants to say it was a cock-up, I won't argue that much.

My point has always been this though:  compared to most courses outside the drive, it holds up it's head just fine.  And judging it based simply on what it is and not what might have been, it's pretty darn good also.  I'll never argue much for it's absolute greatness; but when people say it sucks or the like, that's when my eyebrows raise.

So.. your question is a fair one.  And if the standard is courses inside the drive, then I'd guess I'd get to 7-8 times out of 100, so we're not that far off.  I'm just not sure that clearly defines the merits of Spanish Bay.

Answer this:  out of 100 rounds divided among Spanish Bay, Poppy Hills, Quail Lodge, Carmel Valley Ranch, Bayonet, Blackhorse, Old Del Monte, how many does Spanish Bay get?

'm thinking at least 20.  Make it other lesser-priced public courses and the number rises significantly. 

And that more defines its merits, I think. 

TH

[Kyle Henderson]

Cons: The playing corridors are very tight between the environmental areas, especially given the many doglegs and potentially high wind velocities. A yardage book is a must. In the few places where width was created between dunes, central hazards drastically shrink the available playing  corridors. The greens feature some severe slopes, especially given that approach shots are rarely hit from even lies (the fairways undulate considerably) or in calm conditions. The 15th and 17th holes are virtually identicle in terms of direction, layup yardage and total yardage, though the greens vary somewhat from one another. The INN takes up a good chunk the property in the course's interior and spoils the views on much of the course. I would have preferred a plan that kept the INN more inland and left the dunescape to be used for the golf course in its entirety. The 18th hole is long, narrow, semi-blind, ackward and wholly unsuited to a windy site. The full price green fee is overblown, in typical Pebble Beach Company fashion.

Pros: The overall routing takes advantage of one of the greatest settings in golf -- immaculate dunes on the shores of the pacific for holes 1-9 and 14-18, Del Monte forest for 10-13. The "top hat" green on #12 is unlike any other green I've seen and offers many compelling scenarios. Undulating fairways and central hazards -- too rarely scene in American "links"-- do add playing interest if one is hitting the ball straight enough to challenge/avoid them with any proficiency in the limited space provided. The setting really is the course's greatest strength as a golf experience.

While I agree that it fits the criteria for a"7" rating on the Doak scale in some respects, architecturally there are a lot of courses that I find superior to Spanish Bay that would probably receive slightly lower marks from many. A 5 or 6 might be more appropriate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

So.. your question is a fair one.  And if the standard is courses inside the drive, then I'd guess I'd get to 7-8 times out of 100, so we're not that far off.  I'm just not sure that clearly defines the merits of Spanish Bay.

Answer this:  out of 100 rounds divided among Spanish Bay, Poppy Hills, Quail Lodge, Carmel Valley Ranch, Bayonet, Blackhorse, Old Del Monte, how many does Spanish Bay get?

Do you think the sites of the above courses are comparable to the site at Spanish Bay ?[/color]

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

No, obviously they are not.  But that's a big reason why Spanish Bay rises above those courses - the site is pretty darn nice, allowing for rolling linksy shots to be faced and allowing for a lot more wind, which I find to be fun.  And notice I didn't mention the scenic views.

 

The point remains you want to talk about what might have been, which is fine.  It surely could have been a lot better.  Point taken, agreed, stipulated.

But we can't change it.

So why not talk about what is?

And in terms of what is, well.. I shall stick with my prior post.  It's a pretty darn fine golf course.  Kyle H. gives the pros and cons very well.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

In principle I agree with Tom on this one.  You can do a helluva lot worse, even in the Monterey area, than SB.  If it gets a 7 on the Doak scale that is saying alot and it doesn't diminish it one bit that it has so many great neighbors.

In terms of something I would have done differently if I were in a position to do so.  I would have moved the Lodge to the back of the property and have the entire course play on the ocean-side of the Lodge.

[Mike Golden]

I fail to understand why one course has to be continuously compared to neighboring courses.

Spanish Bay is a good, not great, golf course.  I have enjoyed playing it each time I've been there and prefer it to Spyglass, which I think is very repetitive after the 1st 5 holes.  I really like the holes in the dunes (15-17) and the first 6 holes give you a chance to set up a good score because they reward proper positioning of the tee shot and good approach shots.

If given 20 rounds among Spyglass, Spanish Bay, and Poppy Hills, I would play them about equally unless cost is a consideration.  Once you factor in cost, Poppy probably gets 10 rounds, Spanish Bay 7 and 3 for Spyglass.  Pebble is priced out of consideration, Old Del Monte is a waste of time (I just don't get it as a course worth playing very often), I can't comment on Bayonet and Black Horse since the renovations (I liked both of them before the renovations), and Pacific Grove, while having a fun back 9, doesn't do it for me either.  Pasatiempo is by far my favorite among these but I'd have a difficult time paying $275 a round when it was so much less expensive even 5 years ago.

Of course, I really like Lake Merced also and think it's far superior to Cal Club, which puts me in the minority here...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

When critiquing/evaluating Spanish Bay, most do so in the context of "opportunity lost"

There are some very nice holes, but, overall, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that the present golf course is the best golf course that could have been built on that site.  It seems to be a universal given, that more could have been done.

Many times facility location predetermines or dooms the golf course that inherits the remainder of the property.

Some times maximizing the number of units does the same thing.

I think both happened at SB.

It's unfortunate that the hotel, housing, tennis courts and parking lots couldn't have been located East of 17 mile drive.  Then, potentially, a far, far better golf course could have been designed.

As to playing out of ESA's to ameliorate their presence, I don't agree with that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Fine.  I get that, as I said in the last post.  You do know the meaning of the words "point taken, agreed, stipulated", right?

So you have no interest in discussing the course as is?

If so, fair enough.  You live in dreamworld, I'll be here in reality when you're ready to talk.

TH

[Jed Peters]

I fail to understand why one course has to be continuously compared to neighboring courses.

Spanish Bay is a good, not great, golf course.  I have enjoyed playing it each time I've been there and prefer it to Spyglass, which I think is very repetitive after the 1st 5 holes.  I really like the holes in the dunes (15-17) and the first 6 holes give you a chance to set up a good score because they reward proper positioning of the tee shot and good approach shots.

If given 20 rounds among Spyglass, Spanish Bay, and Poppy Hills, I would play them about equally unless cost is a consideration.  Once you factor in cost, Poppy probably gets 10 rounds, Spanish Bay 7 and 3 for Spyglass.  Pebble is priced out of consideration, Old Del Monte is a waste of time (I just don't get it as a course worth playing very often), I can't comment on Bayonet and Black Horse since the renovations (I liked both of them before the renovations), and Pacific Grove, while having a fun back 9, doesn't do it for me either.  Pasatiempo is by far my favorite among these but I'd have a difficult time paying $275 a round when it was so much less expensive even 5 years ago.

Of course, I really like Lake Merced also and think it's far superior to Cal Club, which puts me in the minority here...

Whoa. We're like polar opposites on a lot of this post!

[Kyle Henderson]

I fail to understand why one course has to be continuously compared to neighboring courses.

Spanish Bay is a good, not great, golf course.  I have enjoyed playing it each time I've been there and prefer it to Spyglass, which I think is very repetitive after the 1st 5 holes.  I really like the holes in the dunes (15-17) and the first 6 holes give you a chance to set up a good score because they reward proper positioning of the tee shot and good approach shots.

If given 20 rounds among Spyglass, Spanish Bay, and Poppy Hills, I would play them about equally unless cost is a consideration.  Once you factor in cost, Poppy probably gets 10 rounds, Spanish Bay 7 and 3 for Spyglass.  Pebble is priced out of consideration, Old Del Monte is a waste of time (I just don't get it as a course worth playing very often), I can't comment on Bayonet and Black Horse since the renovations (I liked both of them before the renovations), and Pacific Grove, while having a fun back 9, doesn't do it for me either.  Pasatiempo is by far my favorite among these but I'd have a difficult time paying $275 a round when it was so much less expensive even 5 years ago.

Of course, I really like Lake Merced also and think it's far superior to Cal Club, which puts me in the minority here...

I'm confused. Are you comparing courses to their neighbors to show the ineffectuality of such comparisons?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Fine.  I get that, as I said in the last post.  You do know the meaning of the words "point taken, agreed, stipulated", right?

So you have no interest in discussing the course as is?

If so, fair enough.  You live in dreamworld, I'll be here in reality when you're ready to talk.

I don't consider a par 3 over water, where the reeds between the tee and the green prevent the golfer from determining where the water ends and the green starts, to be a good golf hole.

Cutting down the reeds, which is probably next to impossible in California, would be the prudent architectural solution.

Adam Clayman indicated that the lines of demarcation between the green and water are now fully visible.  If that's so, the hole has been improved.
If not, it would remain a shortcoming.

Since you're a defender of the course, it's routing and its architecture you probably like the 17th and 18th holes.  I find them lacking, given the site, and you can't ignore the site when discussing the holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

Much better.  At least we are discussing the golf course now.  Thank you.

I don't recall stating that I was a defender of the course, its routing and its architecture, though.  I believe I said I enjoy the course and the course is pretty darn good.  I leave things like routing and architecture to you experts.  I'm just a golfer.

I haven't played it in a long time, so I am not sure what's what with that one par three.  I fully agree with you - it's WAY better with the reeds cut down.

I also am not a huge fan of either 17 or 18.  I don't find either to be truly awful, just not that good.

That being said, I do remain a fan of the course, in a relative sense.  I can be less than hog-wild about a few holes and still enjoy the course overall.  Can't you?

TH

[Mike Golden]

I fail to understand why one course has to be continuously compared to neighboring courses.

Spanish Bay is a good, not great, golf course.  I have enjoyed playing it each time I've been there and prefer it to Spyglass, which I think is very repetitive after the 1st 5 holes.  I really like the holes in the dunes (15-17) and the first 6 holes give you a chance to set up a good score because they reward proper positioning of the tee shot and good approach shots.

If given 20 rounds among Spyglass, Spanish Bay, and Poppy Hills, I would play them about equally unless cost is a consideration.  Once you factor in cost, Poppy probably gets 10 rounds, Spanish Bay 7 and 3 for Spyglass.  Pebble is priced out of consideration, Old Del Monte is a waste of time (I just don't get it as a course worth playing very often), I can't comment on Bayonet and Black Horse since the renovations (I liked both of them before the renovations), and Pacific Grove, while having a fun back 9, doesn't do it for me either.  Pasatiempo is by far my favorite among these but I'd have a difficult time paying $275 a round when it was so much less expensive even 5 years ago.

Of course, I really like Lake Merced also and think it's far superior to Cal Club, which puts me in the minority here...

I'm confused. Are you comparing courses to their neighbors to show the ineffectuality of such comparisons?

Not at all, I just was giving my opinion about those other courses and my playing preferences.  I am not criticizing any of the other ones, just offering my personal opinions based on my experiences.  Just because I don't like a golf course doesn't make it a bad course, it's just my opinion.  That's different, IMO, about criticizing a course because it doesn't live up to it's alleged 'potential'.  It's a big world out there and everyone's opinions are valid.

[Mike Golden]

I fail to understand why one course has to be continuously compared to neighboring courses.

Spanish Bay is a good, not great, golf course.  I have enjoyed playing it each time I've been there and prefer it to Spyglass, which I think is very repetitive after the 1st 5 holes.  I really like the holes in the dunes (15-17) and the first 6 holes give you a chance to set up a good score because they reward proper positioning of the tee shot and good approach shots.

If given 20 rounds among Spyglass, Spanish Bay, and Poppy Hills, I would play them about equally unless cost is a consideration.  Once you factor in cost, Poppy probably gets 10 rounds, Spanish Bay 7 and 3 for Spyglass.  Pebble is priced out of consideration, Old Del Monte is a waste of time (I just don't get it as a course worth playing very often), I can't comment on Bayonet and Black Horse since the renovations (I liked both of them before the renovations), and Pacific Grove, while having a fun back 9, doesn't do it for me either.  Pasatiempo is by far my favorite among these but I'd have a difficult time paying $275 a round when it was so much less expensive even 5 years ago.

Of course, I really like Lake Merced also and think it's far superior to Cal Club, which puts me in the minority here...

Whoa. We're like polar opposites on a lot of this post!

Jed,

It's allowed and doesn't make either of our opinions invalid.  We agree on Pasa, of course.  I also don't think Olympic Lake is as tough as you might think, it just takes a few more rounds to be more comfortable.  I've probably played there 7 or 8 times over the years and it wasn't until the last round that I played to my handicap.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I stated that there are some good holes on the golf course.

But, there aren't enough of them given the site.

And while it may be a good golf course in your eyes, I think we both agree, it could have been a great golf course in everybody's eyes.