Useless putting surfaces that are very useful

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--Maybe in the north its difficult to understand the idea that clubs can have more than 50k rounds, but where I work, its not. 50k rounds a year is not an excessive amount. Its simply a fact that if a green has less pinable space it will wear more quickly than one that has a large volume or pinable space. There is no way to explain how 4500 sqft of space will wear slower than 9000 sqft of space, unless play is far lower.

--Again, using Pebble and Spyglass is akin to using a private club, even though they have public play. Their maintenance budgets I would say are 8-10x higher than the average club.

I would take issue with that claim.
The average club in my area has a maintainance budget of $ 1,000,000 give or take a few dollars.
Stating that PBGC's maintainance budget is $ 8,000,000 to $ 10,000,000 is an exageration to say the least.

Perhaps Bob Huntley can shed some light on the maintainance budget at MPCC, which is right down the road from PBGC.

There are certain fixed costs that apply to all courses irrespective of the number of rounds played.
Thus, increased play does not mandate exponentially greater maintainance budgets.[/color]

-That, Pat, is what you fail to see. The simple average club. The muni or the daily fee club.


I see and understand the diffference between Muni's, daily fees and private clubs.
I also understand climate and weather patterns and math.

Muni's are a different breed since they're government owned.
It's difficult to compare a muni with a daily fee club and/or a private club due to that difference.

From the perspective of "strictly" golf course maintainance items, I don't see substantive differences.

The acreage under managment, divided into its component pieces will dictate costs more than rounds played.[/color]

 
Pebble charges $500 a round. The muni charges $50 at most


Are you telling me that there's a muni near Pebble that only charges $ 50
Sandpiper in Goleta charges $ 129 to $ 149, so I don't know where you're getting your rate information, but, it's not comparable to daily fee courses along the California coast.

What has the fee charged per round got to do with maintainance requirements and budgets ?[/color]

(btw, Bethpage (Black), Torrey, Chambers, etc do not count, they are not nearly AVERAGE municipal clubs).

Why aren't they average ?
The daily fees they charge aren't dictated by the number of rounds played.
What direct link is there between the daily fee charged and the maintainance budget ?
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The reason the AVERAGE club (Which is the clubs I mostly think about when thinking of architecture) doesn't have large putting surface spaces that are not pinable is that they simply, based on play volume, could not survive.  

Of course they can.

Will PBGC be unable to sustain itself, maintainance budget wise, if the green fees were cut to $ 250 ?   $ 150 ?  $ 100 ?

Are you certain that the high daily fee isn't a product of the acquisition costs rather than the golf course maintainance costs on those small greens ?[/color]

IMHO. A place such as NGLA, Pine Valley, etc, can afford to have small greens because they do not host a large volume of play.

I think you're confused or misinformed, neither course is known for having small greens[/color]

Pebble and Pinehurst can afford such greens because they get $500 per round and have a huge budget.

The green fees are not a product of the maintainance budget.

I recall playing Pinehurst when it was cheap.
How did they manage to maintain those greens under those low fees ?
The cost to play those courses is not dictated by the cost to maintain those courses.[/color]

With enough money, nearly anything is possible, but for the local club that operates on a maintenance budget of $300,000 per year, its simply not practicable to have small greens with unpinable areas.

$ 300,000 ?  You must be kidding.
There's not a course in the core New York Met area, public, private, muni or daily fee that operates on an annual maintainance budget of $ 300,000.  Superintendents are getting $ 200,000+ at some courses.  I think you're out of touch with mainstream reality/budgets/thinking.[/color]
 
The golf world exists outside the small area of ultra-high end resort and private clubs, yet so many people on this site seem to think it does not, especially you Mr. Mucci.

While the golf world exists universally, I can guarantee you that courses that are not "high end" resort and/or private clubs, routinely have green budgets in excess of $ 1,000,000.

There's a broad spectrum of clubs in the New York City, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, D.C. areas that don't have budgets that come close to $ 300,000.  It's an unrealistic number in those areas, and I suspect that it's unrealistic in the greater San Fran, L.A., San Diego, Houston, Dallas, Denver, St Louis areas as well.

In 1998 the average cost to maintain a MUNI was 384,000.  At a 5 % annual increase that translates to $ 625,000 today.
And, MUNI's enjoy tax and other advantages over private or for profit golf courses, which would keep their costs down.

BUT, here's what I really want to know.

I want you to identify the daily fee course that does 50,000+ rounds per year that only has a maintainance budget of $ 300,000.

When you identify it, let me know how I can become a part owner of this course.

$ 50 per round, times 50,000 rounds, generates $ 2,500,000 of annual cash flow.

With a maintainance budget of only $ 300,000 that leaves $ 2,200,000 of annual profit.

Sounds like they've got ample funds to do whatever they want to do, and then some.

I also want to know how this course can't afford to mow some unusable putting surfaces.
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[John Moore II]

Pat--I can tell you the the budget at my club is about 675,000 a year. And we are an upper end facility. That number includes labor costs. I seriously doubt any AVERAGE club has a superintendent who makes 200k a year. I actually recall a club in NC posting a job recently where the Head Super would make 29k a year (9 hole facility). YOU show me any average muni course where the super makes more than 75k a year, I'm not even certain my super makes over 75k.
--You have my interest however, I am going to put in some calls, I promise I can find a muni/daily fee where they do 50k rounds with a minimal budget.

[John Moore II]

Actually Pat--You wouldn't have 2,200,000 profit. You neglect to account for paying employees, paying management, taxes, golf car fleet costs, utilities, building maintenence, equipment depreciation, supplies, etc.

[Kalen Braley]

Pat,

Pacific Grove is right down the street from Pebble and it only charges $50.  Based on my years spent in California, I can't think of any munis that were over $40 much less $50.

[John Moore II]

Kalen--Pat only uses that number of $50 because its a number I threw out and it makes him feel better in his own little world of incorrect math and thinking.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat--I can tell you the the budget at my club is about 675,000 a year. And we are an upper end facility. That number includes labor costs. I seriously doubt any AVERAGE club has a superintendent who makes 200k a year. I actually recall a club in NC posting a job recently where the Head Super would make 29k a year (9 hole facility). YOU show me any average muni course where the super makes more than 75k a year, I'm not even certain my super makes over 75k.
--You have my interest however, I am going to put in some calls, I promise I can find a muni/daily fee where they do 50k rounds with a minimal budget.

Please read my posts more carefully.
I never stated that green superintendents at Muni's earned $ 200,000.
A muni course is owned by a governmental agency, and thus all employees are either local, county or state employees, and I doubt any of them are paid more than the Mayor, County Executive or Governor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Actually Pat--You wouldn't have 2,200,000 profit.


Yes I would, from the golf course operation.
Green budgets include labor costs, taxes, utilities, etc.,etc.
[/color]

You neglect to account for paying employees, paying management, taxes, golf car fleet costs, utilities, building maintenence, equipment depreciation, supplies, etc.

Taxes ?

Muni's don't pay taxes.

And, I accounted for employee payroll, it's a part of the green budget, as are utilities, supplies, etc., etc.
Golf cart fleet costs are paid for by cart rental revenues, which usually produce a profit.
Depreciation isn't a hard cost.

I'll take my chances with $ 2,200,000 net gain to play with.

If it cost me $ 700,00 more, I'd still make a profit of $ 1,500,000.

Sounds like a great deal to me.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Pacific Grove is right down the street from Pebble and it only charges $50.  Based on my years spent in California, I can't think of any munis that were over $40 much less $50.

Kalen,

Why did you overlook Sandpiper ?

They charge $ 149 for green fees, which is over $ 40 and $ 50 by a good margin.

As I told JKM, you have to differentiate MUNI's from Daily fee courses because muni's don't pay taxes and have other breaks.

[John Moore II]

--Pat--Trust me, the green budget is separate from the golf operation budget, at least at my club. The 300k number I put out was maintenence only, exclusive of labor and anything related to the Golf Professionals operation. That is where my 675k number for my club comes from, that number is for maintenance operations, not including labor costs. And entirely separate from the Golf Operation and F&B. Each of our three departments runs a different budget within parameters set by the GM.

--Kalen didn't mention anything about a daily fee club, unless of course Pacific Grove is daily fee and not muni.

[Kyle Harris]

--Pat--Trust me, the green budget is separate from the golf operation budget, at least at my club. The 300k number I put out was maintenence only, exclusive of labor and anything related to the Golf Professionals operation. That is where my 675k number for my club comes from, that number is for maintenance operations, not including labor costs. And entirely separate from the Golf Operation and F&B. Each of our three departments runs a different budget within parameters set by the GM.

--Kalen didn't mention anything about a daily fee club, unless of course Pacific Grove is daily fee and not muni.

I don't believe the $300,000 figure either. And what club separates labor in such a way? Most superintendents and GMs are interested in the cost of various operations, like mowing fairways, which includes a manhour cost.

My current facility has a budget of approx. $700,000.

[Patrick_Mucci]

--Pat--Trust me, the green budget is separate from the golf operation budget, at least at my club.

The 300k number I put out was maintenence only, exclusive of labor

I'd like to trust you, but, I've been comparing green budgets at various clubs for 40+ years, and labor costs, ie, green department payroll, has ALWAYS been included as a line item in the green budget.
[/color]

and anything related to the Golf Professionals operation.

Agreed, golf Professional operations are seperate from Green Department operations, but so is the revenue side.[/color]

That is where my 675k number for my club comes from, that number is for maintenance operations, not including labor costs.

I don't know of a single club that doesn't include green department payroll, and withholdings, as part of the green budget.[/color]

And entirely separate from the Golf Operation and F&B.

Each of our three departments runs a different budget within parameters set by the GM.

Then where is the payroll for those employees who work for the green department, charged ?
How can you charge payroll for green department employees to another department ?[/color]

--Kalen didn't mention anything about a daily fee club, unless of course Pacific Grove is daily fee and not muni.

Pacific Grove is a Muni, and thus exempt from local taxes, which is not an inconsequential item, especially in that neighborhood.[/color]

[John Moore II]

OK, so we've gotten far off the original topic here.

--My simple point, was that green surfaces with a high or even moderate percentage of unpinable space MIGHT be considered too costly to maintain for the AVERAGE course. That MAY explain why you do not see greens like that on a daily basis. (however, I played Pinehurst National today and those greens have a significant percentage of unpinable areas, to the point of severity. They were puttable today due to the green speeds being a posted 7.5 ft, due to recent aerification, but those greens at 10, 11 or higher, I couldn't imagine) As to why these green features are not seen more often at higher end clubs with large budgets and/or low volumes of play, I can't answer, I have never been a member of, or worked at, an extremely high end private/resort facility.