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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« on: May 19, 2002, 07:34:22 AM »
I read last night in the June 1971 Golf Journal that Wilson returned from overseas "loaded with sheafs of drawings of the famous holes  of the British Isles."

Has anyone seen such drawings?

Apart from seeing them and reading what I assume would be accompanying notes in the margin, they would obviously help identify the specific holes that inspired him to angle the 2nd green toward the OB, configure the 3rd green complex as he did and build over top of a barn, create tons of playing room out to the right on 5 only for the golfer to find that he is out of luck from other there, etc.

In short, it seems to me that these drawings would be enormously insightful on several different levels. Do these drawings still exist?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Has anyone seen High Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2002, 08:50:16 AM »
I have never heard that such drawings exist today but if they did and if they did as you described that would indeed be one helluva treasure trove!!

How about if something like that existed from Crump? Equally a treasure trove. I believe I have seen Crump's drawing hand and style on his routing scheme and believe me he was a far more talented architect than he was a drawing artist!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2002, 02:40:27 PM »
Tom,

Speaking of Crump, what kind of a relationship did Wilson and he enjoy (i.e. how much info/thoughts/design ideas were passed back and forth during PV's construction)?
 
Clearly Crump held Wilson in high esteem  - what was the basis for Wilson overseeing the construction of the last few holes at PV?

Crump sold his business in 1910 - was Crump perhaps on site during any of Merion's construction process in 1911?

How much time did Crump spend at Merion during the construction phase at Pine Valley?

In short, how much - or little - did Merion's design influence Crump?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2002, 05:57:37 AM »
Ran:

Sorry, I missed this for a while.

You're questions about a Merion/PVGC or a Hugh Wilson/George Crump connection are very good ones.

I'm not certain at the moment (hope to find out more soon) but it seems it could have been far far less than one might expect.

Crump was about 8 years older than Wilson and although Crump belonged to a large number of clubs in the Philadelpia area Merion does not appear to be one. Hugh Wilson, on the other hand does not appear to have been a member of Pine Valley although his brother Alan was.

It's possible that they might have had almost no real connection to each other when their courses were being done somewhat simultaneously. I can see no real evidence of Hugh Wilson being on hand at PVGC before Crump died and no real evidence of Crump being at Merion in the teens.

The known Wilson connection to PVGC came in the period after Crump died and involved the construction (not the design) of holes 12-15 that were completed in 1920 bringing PVGC finally to 18 holes after basically seven years.

The interesting work of the so-called 1921 Advisory Committee that was formed to "finalize" the course (following completion of the 18) and bring it into first class shape in both design and otherwise does not appear to include Hugh Wilson.

But it seems to me that any involvement at Pine Valley by Hugh Wilson may have been due to others at Pine Valley he knew, other than Crump.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2002, 07:03:16 AM »
Ran:

There seems to be one other interesting facet of Pine Valley and Crump. That is that Crump appears to have had a quite rigid plan in mind for the course either before or just after he bought the property. I would call this idea or plan the old fashioned actual "tough examination of every club and every type of shot" attitude or plan for both routing and design.

I believe Crump may have had a very specific and preconceived "balance and variety" scheme in his head preconstruction and that could be some of the reason it took so long to finalize and complete construction of the course!

It also appears that Crump began to construct before his entire 18 routing was finalized and consequently all the hole designs were finalized too. This incremental or segmented method of creation and construction is what I would call "constructing yourself into a box" and it appears Crump did that to an extent--the "box" ultimately being 12-15.

It appears that some aspects of Wilson's original routing and hole configurations at Merion were also quite bizarre!

PVGC was really not completed for almost 10 years from its start and Merion did not come into its present form for almost 18 years from its start!

The inspiration for Pine Valley was really two things.

1. To play winter golf (because PV's area has always been considered app. 10 degrees winter warmer than Philly!) and Crumps group got tired of traveling all the way to Atlantic City for their winter golf, and;

2. To build a really first class golf course as Crump & friends felt that Philadephia did not have one at that time--they were apparently a bit disallusioned with the courses they belonged to and played on then!

It seems that the fundamental inspiration for the level of quality of both courses may have come from the inspiration of NGLA! Both Wilson and Crump made the same extended tours of Europe in search of design ideas that MacDonald once had many years before!

Certainly Wilson had a two day crash course from MacDonald before going to Europe but I'm not sure if Crump did--he may have done it more on his own with his friend Joseph Baker playing Sunningdale, Walton Heath, Turnberry, Prestwick, Hoylake (where he played John Ball, Champion of England who beat him two and one). They also played TOC, Royal St. Georges, Royal Cinque Ports, and Princes before taking off for the contintent and Egypt. Perhaps Crump met Harry Colt on this European trip. It seems as if the "heathland" course became his inspiration, as it must have looked much like Camden Co. NJ to him.

I've never heard that Crump made any notes or drawings of any holes in Europe though. Wilson went to Europe for the express purpose of holes ideas and concepts as Merion was in the works but on Crump's 1910 trip Pine Valley was obviously just a dream and at least two years from even the beginning of the beginning.

All these early designers knew each other. Crump, Wilson, MacD, Tilliinghast, Travis, Travers, Emmet, Quimet and many others. One wonders why or how since they came from different cities.

The key was probably primarily the Lesley Cup Matches beginning in 1900 which involved the extremely popular and written about "Intercity" matches between Philadephia, New York and Boston and eventually inluding Quebec. It's impressive to see now all the early designers that played well were part of this.

The Lesley Cup Matches also set the formats for the later Walker and Ryder Cups.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Trying to understand who influenced whom the most
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2002, 08:09:43 PM »
Tom,

Very, very interesting.

What I don't get is this: Crump and Wilson were heavily influenced by their overseas trips and yet each course that they saw tended to have between 1 to 4 indifferent holes.

Upon their respective returns, these two gentlemen build two courses in relative proximity to one another where each and every shot is tested. Every single aspect of the final design was well planned and thought out.

Only a few courses to this day can claim the same and yet these two courses did just that as they evolved through the 2nd/3rd decade of the 20th century.

Is this just a coincidence or is this then perhaps Macdonald's influence? Macdonald's overseas trips and devotion to NGLA set the stage for that course to possess 18 holes of exceptional merit. To what extent did Macdonald/NGLA help inspire Wilson and Crump to seek perfection? And/or was it Fownes at Oakmont?

Bottom line: as you've always maintained through collaboration, I assume all these guys drafted along each other and ultimately got sweep up into doing something better than they would have individually?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 02:44:39 PM »
I'm not trying to start another Merion thread and this isn't and so thanks to Dan Hermann for searching the website's archives and finding this interesting thread from over six years ago.

This is most ironic to me that this thread was begun by Ran himself and the only posts on it seem to be between the two of us. The questions are some very good ones and they are most certainly not just starting out by challenging the history and status quo of the club and course as most of the other Merion ones that have gone down in the last seven years after this one did.

Furthermore, I can't believe neither I nor anyone else here never answered that last post of his as the questions are very good, particularly as they relate to all that's happened since.

Anyway, Ranaldo, I'm sorry it took me over six years to answer your thread question, this might give procrastination on here a whole new meaning----but, no, as far as I know, noone, and I really might mean NOONE has seen Hugh Wilson's drawings. Maybe he never did any!  ;)

But since you're around today and tomorrow, I suggest if you have some time to spare while on the 3rd green that you get into that big really high greenside right bunker and proceed to ream out the bank of it. They say that green sits on what once was an old Pennsylvania "bank" barn, and maybe Hughie I. hid those plans and drawings he did over there at the base of that old bank barn in 1911! Maybe you might even find C.B. Macdonald's 1910 Merion East routing hidden under there. Even if Macdonald mentioned in his letter to Merion in June 1910 that the club didn't have a topo map and that they should get one and he didn't return again until April 1911 I don't really see why that would mean Macdonald's 1910 routing couldn't be under there, do you? Maybe he even routed and designed the whole course in one day on the back of an envelope!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 03:02:08 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 04:41:21 PM »
I'd love to see the June 1971 Golf Journal that Ran refers to in the original post.  I did some searches, but came up empty.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 06:54:12 PM »
Ran's question about the relationship between Hugh Wilson and George Crump was somewhat prescient.

We now know that both men were named to a GAP Committee (along with Ab Smith and Joseph Slattery) charged with finding a site for a public course in 1913, which resulted after a couple of false starts with the selection of the Cobb's Creek property.

We also know that both men were part of the GAP committee named in early 1915 that laid out the golf course.   It was wonderful finding the original GAP minutes in their archives as source material. 

For what it's worth, I don't believe that Crump was involved much after the original routing was determined;  at least we haven't found mention of it, but we also know that Hugh Wilson and Ab Smith and George Klauder spent a great deal of time on the construction of the course.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 06:56:20 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2008, 12:41:27 AM »
"Is this just a coincidence or is this then perhaps Macdonald's influence? Macdonald's overseas trips and devotion to NGLA set the stage for that course to possess 18 holes of exceptional merit. To what extent did Macdonald/NGLA help inspire Wilson and Crump to seek perfection? And/or was it Fownes at Oakmont?"

Ran:

I'm sure he must have been abroad checking out architecture at some early point but I've really never heard much about a Fownes study trip abroad. As for Crump, I've never heard anything about him being inspired by Macdonald or checking with him before going abroad. Matter of fact, even though Crump and Wilson must have known each other well, I've never seen much at all about Crump checking out Merion or even Hugh Wilson being much involved with Pine Valley until after Crump died. Alan Wilson always had more to do with Pine Valley than his brother Hugh did.

One of the things that seemed to be sort of the rage with Wilson and Crump in the mid-teens were those Frederick Winslow Taylor greens. Taylor died in 1915 and that was the event that really got Wilson energized about collecting information to be disseminated in a wide range on agronomy. Pine Valley, I believe, had installed up to six Taylor greens before Taylor died.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 12:46:27 AM by TEPaul »

Rich Goodale

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2008, 04:55:15 AM »
I bet they're filed in the same drawer as the Macdonald/Whigham routing plan.

TEPaul

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2008, 08:50:55 AM »
We saw that file but the Macdonald/Whigam 1910 design plan was gone and all that was in the file was a note:

"Removed in 1926 to create a "Legend" of  "Novice/Nobody" Hugh I. Wilson who died young after many years of doing nothing."
Signed:
Alan Wilson
Horatio Gates Lloyd
Rodman Griscom
Richard Francis
Henry Toulmin

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2008, 09:24:18 AM »
No cackling note signed by Professor Moriarity of Sherlock Holmes fame?  ???

Mike_Cirba

Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2008, 01:53:54 PM »
I'm not sure if Wilson's drawings or Macdonald's routing plan will ever be found, but I am pleased to report that I have located an artist's contemporaneous, conceptual drawing of the legendary H.J. Whigham's late night prescient vision that inspired him to convince Charles Macdonald to visit Merion in 1910.

Macdonald, of course, would have really preferred to finish NGLA after three years of construction at the time than to visit some narrow, street-crossed, quarry-laden, proposed housing development course in Pennsylvania, but Whigham's vision of the future laurels and historic credit that Macdonald would eventually receive 100 years later for his efforts in building the course at Ardmore ultimately convinced him to make the trip.   

« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:57:39 PM by MikeCirba »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Has anyone seen Hugh Wilson's drawings?
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 02:50:49 PM »
Mike, For some reason, that is going to give me nightmares!

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