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Mike Mosely

Really confused about Merion - please help
« on: May 19, 2008, 06:45:27 PM »
Hey everyone.  Hope you've all been well since I've been away.  It's nice to be back - big hello to Dick Daley by the way...and go Celtics!

I just started trying to sift through all the work everyone's been reading and talking about Merion and I feel really scared.

A friend asked me to tell him about Merion, and I'll be the first to admit I haven't played there and I know only a little about its tournament history. I have a copy of Great Golf Courses of America by John Gordon and Michael French and was going to consult it tonight.  I know the book is old and a lot of people have done significant work since then.  I have no idea whether or not gordon/french did a nice job on the Merion chapter or got everything wrong.  I'll check my Conf. Gd. when I get home too (thanks Mr. Doak).

I printed out DM's IMO piece just for the sake of reading it.  I was REALLY hoping Ran had written a piece on Merion, but was surprised to see no piece by Ran in the courses by country section.

Can someone please help with two things that I hope won't just be useful to me, but to everyone on the site:

1.  Could someone please provide a general (but of course accurate), general history of the design and building of the East course and

2.  has someone done a nice hole by hole review of the architecture of the 18 holes?

Please please please, I don't want to be asked to take sides in the fight.  I don't know anything and I have no interest in getting into a war which I know nothing about...I dont have an opinion, I just want to learn and i don't want to read 22 pages on one thread and however many other threads there are and lose sight of the forest because its all so confusing.

Maybe would it be helpful for someone to distill what the two camps seem to be fighting over?  I mean this is harder to figure out than who was right about the Trojan War!  where do DM and WM/TEP disagree and why?

can we simply get positions on the general history of the building and layout of the club and how the holes play and why the course may - according to doak and nicklaus - may be yard for yard the best design in America?

Thanks.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 06:48:33 PM »
Oh Mike, you have no idea what you are asking for! ;D
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Sean_A

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 06:51:46 PM »
Mike - I hope this links helps.  Additionally, I am finally starting to believe that the Philly crowd and David M are arguing over next to nothing.  I suspect they disagree about the details, but agree in their conclusions far more than they disagree.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34519.msg694195.html#msg694195

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JC Jones

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2008, 06:57:19 PM »
Mike - I hope this links helps.  Additionally, I am finally starting to believe that the Philly crowd and David M are arguing over next to nothing.  I suspect they disagree about the details, but agree in their conclusions far more than they disagree.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34519.msg694195.html#msg694195

Ciao

Couldnt agree with you more.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mike Mosely

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2008, 07:02:23 PM »
Sean - thank you for the thread and the pix.  They look great and congrats on such a great trip.  Where else did you play on this visit?

The pix are terrific, but is there also a thread explaining what I'm looking at and why each hole is so good?  Or better still, who worte a good book or article about the course?  Thanks.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Sean_A

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2008, 07:10:46 PM »
Sean - thank you for the thread and the pix.  They look great and congrats on such a great trip.  Where else did you play on this visit?

The pix are terrific, but is there also a thread explaining what I'm looking at and why each hole is so good?  Or better still, who worte a good book or article about the course?  Thanks.

Mike

I am no expert on Merion.  If you have specific questions about the course (not the history) I can give it a stab.  Otherwise, talk to the Philly crowd.  If you google Merion an interesting report by an intern will pop up.  It goes into extensive maintenance details and has some excellent pix.

I played Lederach (which impressed me hugely and took me off guard), LuLu (which was a cool course that I would like to see again) and Rolling Green (which is very good and I would like to see again).  However, Merion was comfortably the best of the bunch. 

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2008, 07:15:10 PM »
Mike,
Please check out http://www.2009walkercup.org/coursewalk2.html

It's a really nice virtual walking tour of Merion East.

I love this quote from the description of #16:
The old quarry, which is traversed by the last three holes, is a wonderfully effective natural hazard and makes these holes a fine finish. The 16th is a corker, it is a real gem. If your drive is a good one, before you extends the old quarry, its cliff-like sides frowning forbiddingly. Just beyond, and sparkling like an emerald, is the green, calling for a shot that is brave and true. No one will ever play Merion without taking away the memory of No. 16."
–A. W. Tillinghast

PS - I encourage everybody to visit Philly next year and take in some great golf at the 09 Walker Cup.  Watching the US AM was really great, and I'm sure this will live up to that wonderful event.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 07:20:26 PM by Dan Herrmann »

mark chalfant

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 07:21:08 PM »
Mike

try to do a google search for Herbert Warren Wind, he did a nice write up on Merion  and Seminole for Golf digest  in the early 1980s. Tom Doak's comments  in the  the Confidential  Guide are also helpful


Dan Herrmann

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Chip Gaskins

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 07:46:54 PM »
Merion, never heard of it?

Just kidding, actually we don't discuss Merion the golf course on this site, sorry. 

However if you have an interest in Wilson's cousins uncles toe nail length or Macdonald's sisters wedding dress length or where "the committee" had tea on june 12 1910... then you came to the right place! ;D

Jay Flemma

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 10:01:36 PM »
sorry guys, my keyboard seized up there.  Has anyone by the way got an over head view of the layout of the course?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 10:03:08 PM by Jay Flemma »

Phil McDade

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 10:09:27 PM »
Mike:

Here is a link to that intern's report that Sean mentioned; it's quite good, with some very good pics, dating back to his work at Merion East prior to the recent US Am there:

http://www.hort.iastate.edu/turfgrass/internreports/merion.pdf

TEPaul

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 10:34:56 PM »
MikeM:

If you really want to know the architectural history of Merion East, IM Wayne and ask him if he'd mind sharing some of the approximately 160 page "Design Evolution Report" (DER) he wrote on the course for the Flynn book.

Believe me, Mike, this essay that David Moriarty wrote does not amount to a hill of beans as to who routed and designed Merion East. Wilson and his committee did that and they got advice and suggestions from Macdonald on that on approximately two occasions that lasted about two and a half days total but for which they were very grateful and mentioned that for years to come---just the way Merion's history has basically depicted it until perhaps Tolhurst's or perhaps a 1950 Merion history book came along an may've misinterpreted this trip abroad thing and what it meant.

But did Macdonald essentially route the course in 1910 and Wilson and his committee just build to that plan as Moriarty concludes? No way at all, Mike, not even close and you can take that to the bank and we will prove it if the clubs permission it on here. Frankly, my take recently on these threads is not even Moriarty's essay, it's more about the irresponsible and callous way he's been carrying on recently on these threads with his disparaging of a Merion member trying to help this site and he's still being allowed to carry on that crap. I think that's what Merion is getting pretty disallusioned with this website about.

But you can see what Moriarty is trying to do---he continues to try to make this about him and some paranoid attack on him. It has nothing to do with him personally, only about the speculative revisionist history on the course he's trying to put out there for God only knows what reasons.

I guess he just thought people were pretty dumb and gullible and he could make a name for himself with his speculative syllogistic essay. But one thing is for sure, he certainly has made a name for himself, and not the kind any of us would want!  ;)

Mike Mosely

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 10:57:57 PM »
sorry guys, my keyboard seized up there.  Has anyone by the way got an over head view of the layout of the course?

Mike Sweeney posted one above.

Everyone, thanks so much for all the input.  I'll be reading long into the night.  I appreciate your work and your passion.  Looks like 2013 will be great no matter what everyone thinks about the various theories.  Tom, I'll EM WM tomorrow or Wed after I get a chance to do some reading.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2008, 01:48:58 AM »
Mike,  I appreciate you reading the essay but should warn you that since it was written one new document has come to light, and that document indicates that Macdonald's early letter did not contain a description of the holes or their arrangement.   So my inference that this may have been the case was wrong, and I need to update the essay to reflect the new information.   

I am at a bit of a loss as to when to do so, however, because I know there is more information out there that is currently not available to me.   I am trying to figure this out, and hope to have a solution soon.   I am sorry if this causes some confusion,  I don't want my essay to mislead anyone.   

As for sources on the course, I'd look at the photos Sean Arble posted recently. 

It is definitely a course worth looking into.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Mosely

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 09:18:53 AM »
Thanks for that and for your candor.  Again, I don't want to get in the middle of an argument.

Maybe now that I have the information, we should close this thread?  It seems to have run its course and that way it wont be overkill with all the other threads going on and there'll be no chance of it devolving into arguing?

Thanks everyone.

Jim Nugent

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 09:22:53 AM »
Club History

https://www.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourid=16114


Jones aerial 1930

http://www.hagley.org/library/exhibits/dallinexhibit/events/merion.html


When I click on the first url (the member statements) I get a message that says "Session lost or expired".   Any thoughts on how to fix it? 

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 01:33:33 PM »

RJ_Daley

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Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 02:27:19 PM »
Mike, well done.  Get in, get out with the info you sought, close the thread.  Perfect.  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jay Flemma

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 03:36:25 PM »
Hey Brother William!  Mosely beat me to the punch, but I'll say hi to you too.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Really confused about Merion - please help
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2008, 10:19:27 PM »
Mark Chalfant:

If you still have Herb Wind's piece on Merion and Seminole (it was actually a 2 part series that also included Cypress Point), check out the identity of the fellow that Herb quoted at some length regarding the superb strategy of Merion's design.  A punk kid who thought he knew something about golf architecture - his name escapes me just now.

Maybe somebody else can locate it and post it a la in the same way the Dan Jenkins piece from SI was put up.

TEPaul

Re: Really confused about Merion - please help New
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2008, 12:34:04 AM »
"Maybe would it be helpful for someone to distill what the two camps seem to be fighting over?  I mean this is harder to figure out than who was right about the Trojan War!  where do DM and WM/TEP disagree and why?"

MikeM:

I do hear you----it probably is hard to figure out what all the arguing and fighting is over. But you read "The Missing Faces of Merion" so you should just start by asking yourself what premises he's making and what conclusion he comes to that doesn't seem to be part of Merion's architectural history. Now, granted, I admit you may not know what Merion's architectural history is but we certainly do.

I think the difference of opinion that we (Wayne Morrison and I) have with that essay is that it infers that C.B. Macdonald (Whigam) essentially routed Merion East in 1910 and in 1911 Wilson and his committee basically just built the golf course to that Macdonald routing (this is the essence of the essay's premises that Wilson was too much of a novice to route and design it and also the premise of what the terms "lay out" and "Construction Committee" means. The Francis story also figures prominently in his essay as to its timing in 1910.

We don't think it happened that way at all for a lot of reasons, some of which we believe are:

1. There was no routing in 1910 for a number of reasons.
2. That Francis idea (#15 & #16) took place in 1911 not 1910 as the essay says it did.
3. The roll in the entire move to Ardmore of Horatio Gates Lloyd, the details of which were not well known to us or seemingly to the Merion G.C. history writers.

As far as we're concerned if Macdonald really did provide Merion with the routing the course was originally built to he very much deserves almost co-equal design credit with Wilson and his committee and if that turns out to be proved we would suggest to Merion that he get almost co-equal design credit.

Macdonald/Whigam definitely advised Merion on their move to Ardmore and the way they went about creating the course (with a committee and perhaps a professinal engineer) and the club has always given them credit for that including from Hugh Wilson and his brother Alan who was there to see it every step of the way.

There most certainly is an on-going enigma here, though, and it's that story that Wilson went abroad in 1910 and returned with reams of drawings and sketches and surveyors maps and such. That story very well may've been a total non-event and it may not have even come within five decades of the creation of Merion. We can't find any mention of it within that timeframe of the creation of Merion or within decades of it other than some may've misconstrued what Alan Wilson said in his report about the creation of Merion about fifteen years after the fact----eg "the land was FOUND in 1910 and as a first step, Mr. Wilson was sent abroad to study the more famous links in Scotland and England." Remember, Alan Wilson wrote that fifteen years after the fact and to him 'a first step' may not have been 1910, particularly seeing as when Alan Wilson wrote that report in 1926 the course was still not really finished.

The point here is, however, even if Wilson did not go abroad in 1910 it does not mean that he and his committee did not route, design and build that course in 1911. But they always said Macdonald advised them in certain ways and made some suggestions. Alan Wilson's report says that Hugh and his committee designed and built the East and West course and that; "On his return the plan was gradually evolved and while largely helped by many excellent suggestions and much good advice from the other members of the committee, they have each told me that he is the person in the main responsible for the architecture of this and the West courses."

We have no reason to doubt that Alan Wilson report, at this point. Some on here call that report a glorified eulogy, and inaccurate on Alan Wilson and the other members of Hugh Wilson's committee's part---- but we don't. Our opinion is it's the truth, and we believe these recently rediscovered MCC board meeting minutes confirm its accuracy!
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 12:28:50 PM by TEPaul »

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