[Phil Benedict]

This is a quote from Ian Andrew from another thread:

"Pinehurst #2: I've been around Pinehurst quite a few times over a twenty year span. The site is good but nothing spectacular, yet the playing experience is unique to golf. The combination of green contour and run-offs make a good player struggle – yet the width and opportunity to play on the ground allow a weaker player to get around comfortably."

I thought the phrase "playing experience is unigue to golf" was interesting.  Are there any other courses where one can make such a statement about the playing experience?  I can't vouch for Pinehurst # 2 because I've only played it once and very badly indeed.

[Dan Kelly]

Can't help myself. Editor Function won't disengage.

Certainly Ian means "unique IN golf"? I'd presume that playing *any* golf course is unique TO golf!

(Tom Doak has the same copy-editing issue in No. 7 on the Doak Scale: "An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf." Oops. There goes my hard-earned "butt boy" status!)

Doesn't The Old Course mostly epitomize the same virtues that Ian attributes to Pinehurst No. 2?

And I'm still wondering, of Tom Doak, if -- as I speculated in another thread -- Interlachen might have received a Doak 7 instead of a Doak 6 if the course hadn't been burdened with the expectations born of a long and storied history. To me, Interlachen fits every word of No. 7 on the Doak Scale.

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

I'm not sure if Ian is wrong.  To me each and every golf golf course is unique to golf.  Even the Reverse Jans.  That all courses are different is one of the things which distinguishes golf from say tennis or bowling.  But, that being said, all courses have a structure and form (including the parameter of difference) which is unique TO golf.

At least that is how I would respond if you were my editor.

Rich

[Garland Bayley]

I think Astoria CC qualifies.

[Dan Kelly]

Dan

I'm not sure if Ian is wrong.  To me each and every golf golf course is unique to golf.  Even the Reverse Jans.  That all courses are different is one of the things which distinguishes golf from say tennis or bowling.  But, that being said, all courses have a structure and form (including the parameter of difference) which is unique TO golf.

At least that is how I would respond if you were my editor.

Rich

What both Ian and Tom mean, I think, is "unique among golf courses" -- and, IMO, "unique in golf" communicates that ... unlike "unique to golf," which seems to distinguish golf from all other (lesser) human activities (including editing).

We now return to Planet Earth.

Dan

[cary lichtenstein]

Look at the thread at the bottom of the first page entitled "Let's help newbies...", that contains the best courses by architect that are public or resort.

[Kalen Braley]

I think PG plays pretty unique in its very different set of 9s.  Forresty front 9 followed by the dunes-ish back 9.  Both require different sets of shot requirements and options.

[Tom Huckaby]

Was Pebble unique as a seaside non-links until Old Head got built?

No way.  California has lots of those.  You'll be seeing one at the US Open.  Half Moon Bay has two... Pelican Hill has two... there are plenty of others.

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Since each site is different, in theory every course (except for perhaps copycat or template courses) are unique in golf, no?

That said, any spectacular site tends to stand out as unique, whether the ocean views or big dunes like Cruden Bay, etc.

As far as design, my first impression is that Strantz stuff is the most unique by far.  Dye stuff was that way when Harbor Town was built, but given copycat (or general design trends) unique designs have a way of or at least potential to become less so over time, whereas site qualities never change (without some major erosion, forest fires, etc.....)

[Phil Benedict]

I sort of feel badly that I quoted Ian and he's not here to defend himself, I guess because he didn't find the thread title arresting enough.  Maybe if I had called it "the real story behind the origins of Merion..."  But never mind.

I am sure that when speaking of #2 Ian meant "unique in golf."  No other course presents the same type of challenge to such a degree, which is very small effective landing areas for approaches because of the shape of the greens, as well as the short game options that arise from missing these greens.  It's hard to keep the ball on those greens and it's hard to recover once you miss the green.

Stantz's courses may look different but do they play differently than courses by other designers?  The thing that sets Pinehurst apart is no other course plays the way it does.

[Sam Sikes]

Bit of a homer response, but I think Kinloch is a unique experience.  Between the conditioning, ultra fast greens, multiple options abound, and unsurpassed service, I think it qualifies as high as any modern club not on the coast.

[Tom_Doak]

Sam:

Yes, that's a homer post.  Ever been to Caves Valley?  It's not as good a course as Kinloch from everything I have heard about Kinloch, but the conditioning and the service are as good as it gets.

Dan K is right, that my phrase should have been "unique among golf courses".  I am not sure if Ian meant exactly the same thing or not, but Pinehurst No. 2 would have been an example for me.

Really what always separates out the greatest of courses from the rest, for me, is how different they are from anything else.  Pinehurst No. 2 is a great example, that's why it got a 10 on the Doak scale.  Similarly, Pine Valley is unlike anything else, despite many attempts to copy its style.  Augusta National is (or was) unlike any other course.  And The Old Course at St. Andrews is as different as different could be ... the shots around its greens are absolutely unlike any other course I've ever seen.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Dan K, I see where you're at, but if you're going to go after the preposition usages of those who affiliate to the Queen's English (Tom D has no excuse), you are going to be one busy man, my friend.  This is true not only in sport, but all areas in the language. Many usages seem opposite to ours.

I learned of these differences talking to a gent in a clubhouse once.  He informed me he was standing for a seat in Parliament. We were in the clubhouse because the golf event we were playing had been rained off, a real bummer as I stood on level par.

Then I left for a pub in Cadogan Street, SW1...

Mark

PS True greatness is sui generis; uniqueness is embodied in "great" courses.  Thus, courses cannot be truly great unless they offer unique playing experiences. How bout that!

[cary lichtenstein]

Sam:

Yes, that's a homer post.  Ever been to Caves Valley?  It's not as good a course as Kinloch from everything I have heard about Kinloch, but the conditioning and the service are as good as it gets.

Dan K is right, that my phrase should have been "unique among golf courses".  I am not sure if Ian meant exactly the same thing or not, but Pinehurst No. 2 would have been an example for me.

Really what always separates out the greatest of courses from the rest, for me, is how different they are from anything else.  Pinehurst No. 2 is a great example, that's why it got a 10 on the Doak scale.  Similarly, Pine Valley is unlike anything else, despite many attempts to copy its style.  Augusta National is (or was) unlike any other course.  And The Old Course at St. Andrews is as different as different could be ... the shots around its greens are absolutely unlike any other course I've ever seen.

I guess that this makes North Pam Beach CC by JN great because it has greens that in my opinion "are absoluetly unlike any other course I've ever seen" and before I thought they were unputtable. Goes to show you, what do I know?

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:

Some golfers (even some tournament players) think the shots around the greens at Pinehurst No. 2 are unplayable -- so maybe Jack's course isn't as bad as you think.  There's a fine line based on green speed between cool and silly -- Pasatiempo and Crystal Downs are both subject to it also -- but if it's a fine line and the management takes the green speed over the line, I don't think you blame the architect for that.

[RJ_Daley]

If we can identify a number of golf course designs that present playing characteristics like rounded off green shoulders, that run away to hollows that are short cut, and maintain high green speeds where such design leads to many unpredictable and hard to hold green challenges, then how unique in golf can Pinehurst be?  So, I was thinking about Royal Melbourne with those short cut surrounds, and runaway off greens features, not to mention their distinctive bunkering maintenance and presentations... (not that I ever played there...)

[mark chalfant]

I feel  Prairie Dunes in Kansas is  worthy of consideration



among modern courses,  I find  Oak Tree by Pete Dye  very  compelling

[Gerry B]

sand hills,  the sheep ranch and myopia hunt club come to mind

the 1st time i played in Lanai i thought the "experience" at koele was pretty neat - wild turkeys and venison roaming around a course that i felt could have been located in the pacific northwest not in Hawaii.
funny story -  the second time i played there we went to the local costco in Maui and bought 10 dozen cheap balls and used the signature hole 17th (formerly the 8th) as a driving range - there was no one on the course - the marshall came by and shook his head and drove off

[Allan Long]

For me Yale fits the criteria.

After I was finished with my round, I was still struck (with among other things) the variety of the holes and the memorability of the holes. Although I had played many courses of note before then, something about the entire experience at Yale really impressed me. That experience set off a desire to see more Mac/Raynor work especially NGLA. I hope that some day I have the opportunity, since I know I won't be disappointed.

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  I love Royal Melbourne just as much as Pinehurst No. 2, if not more.  But the golf is very different, especially around the greens.  They are both hard but they have a completely different feel to them.

[Garland Bayley]

... wild turkeys and venison roaming around a course ...

Clearly this would be "dead meat walking"

[henrye]

For me, Rye.

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