[Patrick_Mucci]

the # 2 golf course in the State of NJ ?

Is the 18th hole an impediment to the course rising higher, nationally ?

Would Plainfield benefit from reversing the nines ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Who doesn't consider it the #2 course in NJ?

Have you been reading those other magazines again?   Shame on you! 

[Ed Oden]

I've professed my love for Plainfield on a number of other threads.  While I will admit that 18 is one of the weaker holes on the course, that trait does not bother me.  More importantly it certainly does not detract from the overall quality of the course.  Maybe it would be a bigger deal if the evaluation was based solely on suitability for championship play where a top notch finisher might be considered important.  But for me, its irrelevant. 

As an aside, I used to play the 18th the conventional way (iron off the tee and mid iron to the green).  I didn't like being "forced" to play an ultra-conservative shot from the tee just to get into position for a very difficult approach to a brutal green.  But then I realized that I could take a 3 wood right over the trees and only have a little wedge to the green.  Its risky, but incredibly fun and rewarding if you can pull it off.  It brings birdie and double into play, which I like.  While I still consider 18 one of Plainfield's weaker holes, I now look forward to taking on the risk/reward challenge of the tee shot.

[Mike Sweeney]

From Ran's review:

As good as Plainfield may sound from the above, several peculiarities have attracted criticism in the past. In particular, the stretch of 13-15 has never quite fit in with the rest of the holes. The story of these three holes is somewhat convoluted but goes like this: Ross's original 1921 routing of the course was from the par 4/par 3 that is now the 12th hole to today's 16th hole. The original 17th and 18th holes approximately occupied the land of today's driving range. Appreciating the need for a practice area, the Club acquired the land in the 1930s which the 13th-15th now sit on and Donald Ross himself routed these three holes. A stream as opposed to two ponds was the dominate feature on holes 13 and 14 but the stream was later dammed for irrigation purposes. The actual construction of the 13th-15th holes was left to the golf professional Marty O'Laughlin who was a friend of Ross's and he did a responsible job. Nonetheless, the finishing touches of these holes were slightly out of character with the rest of the course. Thus, the Club eventually hired Geoffrey Cornish to 'improve' them in the 1960s. Unfortunately, they became less like the other 15 holes as Cornish replaced Ross's mounding with bunkers on the left of the 13th and 15th fairways as well as replacing the mounds that were left of the 14th green with another sand faced bunker. Hanse's Master Plan successfully addresses these issues and once Cornish's sand faced bunkers are removed and Ross's mounds restored, these three holes should better meld with the rest of the course.

In addition, two other ponds were created by a long standing Green Keeper on the inside of the doglegs on both the 10th and 18th holes due to the ground's marshy nature. While built for practical reasons, such ponds are completely out of character on a Ross course. Hopefully, the Club will adopt Hanse's plan to restore Ross's original drainage ditch on 10th hole and to push the other collection area on the 18th further away from play.
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Patrick,

I have not been there in quite some time. Where do things stand from Ran's critique?

[Ed Oden]

Mike Sweeney:

While I can't say for sure whether all of these changes have been made, I can tell you that the club has continued to implement a plan to correct past mistakes to great effect.  The tree removal has been a real plus.  And the changes to 16 which were proposed in Ran's profile have been completed and made a great hole even better.  The land which 13-15 sits on is entirely different from the rest of the course (much flatter and on the lowest part of the property).  So it doesn't surprise me that these holes look a little out of place with the rolling nature of the other holes.  That being said, I think 15 is a fantastic hole that entirely fits with the rest of the course, particularly the green.  So in my opinion, its really only 13 and 14 that have a different feel.  But those are two quality holes nonetheless.

Patrick:

I missed the part of your question on reversing the nines.  That's an interesting thought.  I don't believe that doing so would change Plainfield's rank or standing.  While 9 may make a better finisher than 18, it too is not the death march some might want if they were looking to create the toughest end to a championship test.  But as I said befare, that matters little to me.  The only real reason why I might like swapping the nines would be the view of the clubhouse you get coming up 9.  Its just a great setting and feels more like a closing hole than 18.

Ed

[BCrosby]

To ask the obvious question, what exactly IS the problem with the 18th?

As one of the great unwashed who has not played it, help us out here.

Bob

[ed_getka]

Bob,
   You have to wash first.   Seriously though, 18 gets tagged as being too short and anti-climactic a finish. Maybe 360 yards or so (I'm guessing). For those who feel you have to have a stout par 4 finisher, this hole doesn't make the grade. The course in total is so fantastic that I am perfectly happy finishing on that 18th.
   You should make a point of getting up to Plainfield Bob, it is an outstanding Ross with the added luster of recent Gil Hanse work. Plainfield is one of the two clubs I've been to that I would join in a second with a family membership. If I was ever crazy enough to move to NJ that is.
   I don't think reversing nines would make a whole lot of difference. I don't remember #9 being particularly long either. It does have the attribute of playing right in front of the clubhouse patio.
   I think #10 would be any awkward starter,  #11 is a tough little par 3 for the second hole of the day, and I wouldn't want to come to the 12th that early in the round. I think the course opens much better with the current front nine

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I concur with those who see Plainfield clearly as the #2 course in the Garden State. In regards to the 18th hole -- it was originally meant to be the 16th hole before the desire to use other property for two holes and as a result the original last two holes are now where the existing practice range sits.

I don't see the existing 18th hole as a weak hole -- just not up to the level of other holes you encounter when playing there.

Unfortunately, many people who are raters really don't know much about Plainfield and those that do venture there have given it high marks but candidly the course should be rated among the 50 best courses in the USA.

One final thing -- I agree with Ed -- the 10th would be an awkward starting hole and the existing 1st is one of the best opening holes one can play among any course in the metro NYC region.

[Steve Lapper]

Plainfield IS UNQUESTIONABLY NJ's #2.  Absent the competitive history associated with Baltusrol Lower, not another Garden State comes close.

While no one would admit to loving the the present 18th hole, few feel the same about the 18th at Cypress Point, or even Somerset Hills (or even Seminole or Fishers Island), yet that doesn't prevent them from finding the other 17 holes more than worthy of high national rankings. Plainfield is quite simply a gem and remains underrated, in part, due to the nature of the strength of many other worthy courses in the NY Metropolitan Area. For those of us who have the good fortune to live north and east of the Delaware River, that is a good problem to have!

[TEPaul]

"As one of the great unwashed who has not played it, help us out here."


Bob:

I realize you couldn't wash for the last six months or so in Atlanta with that severe drought and water shortage but I thought that was basically over. Feel free to wash any time now.

[Ed Oden]

I'm interested in what you guys think distinguishes Plainfield.  For me its that Plainfield melds the seemingly competing interests of individuality and commonality as well as any course that I have played.  No two individual holes are even remotely alike.  Yet they are all connected by a common feel such that the variety of the individual holes blend together perfectly as a cohesive whole.  Some might argue that 13 and 14 are aberations.  While I can understand that view, I do not agree.  To my eye, Plainfield's brilliance is in both the forest and the trees.  What do others think?

Ed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba, Steve Lapper and Matt Ward,

The debate over the # 2 golf course in NJ has been waged for years.

Many think it's Balusrol Lower, others feel Plainfield is more deserving.

Plainfields topography is probably more interesting, thus the holes reflect undulations in the ground at various angles.

One of the recent alterations produced a feature that I like a great deal.

The back of the 17th green has been restored from high, thick rough to putting surface, thus creating a back stop where marginally hit balls come back toward the center of the putting surface.

#17 has the potential to be a really, really great golf hole,  but, too many trees line the right side, the blind, ribbon like fairway which is angular, needs to be widened in the DZ and the tree to the left removed.

I believe that Ran vividly recalls this hole and the proper way to play it.

In addition to the topography, the putting surfaces are unique.
They're contoured, sloped, have deflecting banks, backstops, false fronts, and..... they're extremely well bunkered.

# 13 and # 14 green and surrounds could probably use more genetic Ross DNA.

The golf course is a wonderful golf course.

While many trees have been removed, I was shocked to see that many saplings had been planted.

It's my understanding that some of the artificial ponds, such as on # 10 and # 18 will be removed in the near future.

Lastly, with a little more fairway width on some of the holes, the golf course would be uniquely spectacular. 

Steve Lapper,

# 18 at Seminole is a spectacular finishing hole, especially when the prevailing winds are up.

Bob Crosby,

Shame on you for letting work get in the way of a visit to GCGC.

The problem/s with # 18 has several facets.
First, it follows # 17, a difficult dogleg right.
# 18 is a dogleg left.

The tee shot is awkward with a pond in the inner elbow and tall trees at the inner elbow.

A driver, hit straight will go OB, or in the brush/trees fronting the OB.

The shot to the green is a steep uphill shot to a dicey, wonderful green with a big hump in it

The green and its surrounds are terrific.

It's the tee shot that's anticlimatic.

Laying up with a long iron, rescue or 3-wood on the 18th hole has been deemed to be a shortcoming by many.

If you lay up, you're left with a 160 to 200 shot that plays to 180 to 220 to a very difficult green with a false front, a steep slope on the putting surface that will make the ball roll off the green and down into the fairway, with a green that's well bunkered, has great internal contouring and is death to go over, almost death to flank.   And, it's a long walk to the clubhouse and/or the 1st tee from the 18th green.

#9 doesn't have length and I don't believe it has great potential for length, but, the tee could be lowered, which would effectively add length, but then, you wouldn't get the great view of the hole.

[PThomas]

Hi Pat -

I haven't played Baltusrol, but if it is better than Plainfield I hope i can someday, because Plainfield is one of the very best courses I've played.

1,200 trees have come out in thelast ten years, and more will be coming out. Some new tees will also be built and bunkers restored.

The pond on 10 will be replaced with a restored creek; the pond on 18 will be removed, a bunker on the corner will eb restored and the hole will be lengthened 25 yards.

Seems like a terrific golf course is only going to get better!

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

When you say "many" believe it's Baltusrol Lower please let me and others know if you are amongst such a crowd (e.g. 2nd in NJ). Frankly, there's little doubt that Baltusrol / Lower has reaped huge benefits of exposure from majors events through the years to garner the votes it generally gets. Take the same people who make such a one time visit to the club and forward them to Plainfield and frankly I can name only one person who even saw the Lower as an equal to Plainfield -- no one I know sees it as that superior layout archiitecturally.

No doubt hosting events does produce some tangible benefits but on pure architecture alone Plainfield is the better of the two courses. Credit the club leadership in keeping the brand name alive and well by jumping into the fray to host the '05 PG Championship. Candidly, I don't see another US Open coming to Springfield for quite some time.

Pat, it might help for you to familiarize yourself with the comments from people such as Ron Whitten to name just one person with a real standing to compare and contrast courses of the highest.

Frankly, I don't see the Lower even among the top 5 in NJ and I'm being most gracious because the competitors who would merit such consideration will not likely ever host big time events such as a US Open or PGA.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Thomas,

The out of bounds fence would seem to preclude adding another yard to # 18.

Matt Ward,

I don't rank clubs numerically.
I tend to lump them into a few general categories,
Championship, Sporty, members and "a golf course"

How many people have taken your test ?

I know many people who put Plainfield in Baltusrol's shadow due to the greens, the add on corner (13, 14, & 15) and # 18.

I happen to love the greens, although, they may be a little too severe at tournament speed.

While standing on the 2nd tee I watched an entire foursome putt off the 11th green.  Two players recovered above the hole and then proceeded to putt off the green AGAIN.

I saw ball after ball, hit on some of the greens, only to roll back off the green and down the fairways.

Is that a credit or a debit to the evaluation of the course ?

I was very disappointed when Plainfield rejected the Senior Open.
I thought the TV exposure would have been great for the golf course and for Donald Ross's architecture.

As to Ron Whitten, he did call Jasna Polana a modern day Winged Foot, so I'm not to sure that I'd view his words as "The Gospel"

Baltusrol remains a wonderful golf course, however, I believe that they began to serve the wrong master and thus lost their way on some maintainance and architectural issues.

But, you can't fault Baltusrol for moving in the rough and bunkers while praising Oakmont for doing the same thing.

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