[Jay Flemma]

***The link to the golf poems is here:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=905

Just so everyone knows - that's it for poetry corner.  I have one more book of poems to review, but since they don't have anything to do with golf, I won't be posting about it here.  For those scoring at home, if you like poetry, tune in July 3&4 for some patriotic poems from a Harvard MFA star...***



I'm working with Mr. Jones on an interview piece.  You would be so happy to hear his thoughts on GCA - basically how he's been waiting his whole to build a place like chambers bay.  His thoughts on strategies and his favorite architects are similar to those espoused by many members of GCA.  He says a lot of things in the interview that you'll smile and nod and agree with.

But for now, I reviewed his poetry book.  The golf poems will be next time - he has Oakmont, WF, chambers bay and many others and a great one about builders and bulldozers.

Here's the link:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=904

[Kalen Braley]

Jay,

I'm sure you a nice guy and I'm sure I'd love to have a round of golf with you..

But I honestly don't understand why you would write something like this, much less post in here. I really don't mean to be terse here, but in the name of "frank commentary" I just don't get it.  To boot it almost invoked my gag reflex which would have resulted in a subway sandwhich soup-like mess all over my desk.

At times I thought I was reading soft porn, other times having a flashback to 11th grade English Class when we analyzed poems.  I honestly couldn't find one reason why you would write something like that and wondered if you even considered your intended audience.

The only purpose I can figure of this article is to show the world how awful Mr. Jones poetry is and that he shouldn't quit his day job.

Kalen

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Kalen, it just might not be your cup of tea.  Some people like poetry, others don't.  It's just another side of Jones that nobody sees and didn't expect.

You can read about his golf courses any old time...this is a look at the man from a different perspective.

[Garland Bayley]

...
But for now, I reviewed his poetry book.  ...

A lawyer reviewing a golf architect's poetry. Now that has to be a must read if I ever heard of one, NOT!
 

[Tim Pitner]

Robert Trent Jones, Jr., Donald Rumsfeld . . . Donald Rumsfeld, Robert Trent Jones, Jr. 

My goodness. 

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Kalen, it just might not be your cup of tea.  Some people like poetry, others don't.  It's just another side of Jones that nobody sees and didn't expect.

You can read about his golf courses any old time...this is a look at the man from a different perspective.

Fair enough Jay,

And I think it could make a good side note if your doing an article on him, as in a mention that he writes poetry as a hobby.  I'm just finding it hard to see why a detailed look like that would be interesting for a "golf space" website.  And it could even be potentially embarassing to him to have that level of granularity exposed to the outside world in such a graphic manner.

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Kalen, it just might not be your cup of tea.  Some people like poetry, others don't.  It's just another side of Jones that nobody sees and didn't expect.

You can read about his golf courses any old time...this is a look at the man from a different perspective.

Fair enough Jay,

And I think it could make a good side note if your doing an article on him, as in a mention that he writes poetry as a hobby.  I'm just finding it hard to see why a detailed look like that would be interesting for a "golf space" website.  And it could even be potentially embarassing to him to have that level of granularity exposed to the outside world in such a graphic manner.

Kalen, he and I already talked about it and he's supportive of it.  Your comment doesn't make any sense...he publishes it in a book and then might be overly sensitive about it being read?  That doesn't follow.

[Kalen Braley]

Jay,

Its nice to hear its out there for public consumption...but poetry is kind of a private interpretation kind of thing.  I guess I could have done without the graphic blow by blow....drinking a bottle of wine is just that drinking a bottle wine, but if it gives you and him a stiffy, well I guess that justs TMI in my book (Too Much Information).

I deviate and I really don't care to get into it.  I guess my real question here is I just don't know what is to be gained/learned from writing pieces like this?  How do you envision a golf enthusiasts reaction to be?

[Jay Flemma]

Jay,

Its nice to hear its out there for public consumption...but poetry is kind of a private interpretation kind of thing.  I guess I could have done without the graphic blow by blow....drinking a bottle of wine is just that drinking a bottle wine, but if it gives you and him a stiffy, well I guess that just TMI in my book (Too Much Information).

I deviate and I really don't care to get into it.  I guess my real question here is I just don't know what is to be gained/learned from writing pieces like this?  How do you envision a golf enthusiasts reaction to be?

"Gee...that's interesting...I never knew that" or

"Hmmm...some of these poems are interesting.  I like the one about St. Andrews" or

"Ahh this is crap, gimme the architecture interview" or

"Well I dont care about these poems, but I wonder what he had to say about Oakmont or WF in his poetry"

Kalen, I hated poetry until I started reading T.S. Eliot and now I like it.  To each his own...I agree...some of the poems are primitive, but some show kindness to his friends and family, some are patriotic, some are travelogues.  But I respect the man's effort...it takes courage to let someone read a poem...a but of one's heart, if you will.  And I stand by my position that - for an amateur with no formal training - he did a nice job with a great many of the pieces in  the book.

[Kirk Gill]

I can get where you're coming from, Kalen. Poetry has become an almost discredited art form - a joke to many if not most people. You are right that for many, poetry is either something they were forced to read in school or something that people write in their journals and never, ever show anyone. As a former English major I've read a lot, written some, and liked a lot, although I can't say I've read much lately, and have no idea of what is current in the art.

But I'll back up Jay on posting this article for two reasons - one, he did mark it as OT (with the word Poetry very clearly stated in the subject line), and two, whodathunk that RTJjr. would be a published poet? The article does, in some way, illuminate an unknown side to a very famous gca.

Maybe Jay's article would have been more effective if it had stuck to presenting the poems rather than analyzing them - but that's something that each reader can decide on their own.

[Kalen Braley]

Fair enough guys, I didn't want to make a "beard-pulling" mountain out of a molehill with this thing...I guess it just really struck me as very odd today.  But then again, I've been accused of being kinda odd myself. 

[Jay Flemma]

No problem Kalen, I understand.  Poetry is generally the red-headed stepchild of the literature disciplines.  But that's because Walt Whitman let loose a generation of uninscribed scribblers with his "Spontaneous me" nonsense and now people confuse free verse spontaneity for being good.  Free verse has devolved to beatniks snapping their fingers and chanting "radiant cool nightmare, zen new jersey nowhere...how now brown beaurocrats" (I forget who wrote that..I wanna say Matt Groening).  Or worse still, Stuart Scott on SportsCenter with that "Stephan Marbury, such a starbury," ridin' around in his car-bury...  Blech!

That's why I think it's important to write metered poetry, to show some skill in crafting something.

So Kirk is right...I used to be the poetry hater in the back of the class too.  But I have a friend at Harvard who just wrote an award winning book of poems based on her great grammas letters she sent home to Maine from Siberia and I've been reading eliot too.  So when i was interviewing Jones on architecture and he compared a golf hole to a TS Eliot poem, well then the two of us started clucking away like broody old hens.

Kirk, I'll take your advice for the next installment.  I'll merely present the poems from St. Andrews, Oakmont, Chambers bay, and the others with less analysis.  I tried to keep the analysis in the last piece to a minimum - just pointing out a few common themes.  After that, there'll be plenty of golf.

By the way kalen I loved your "beard-pulling" image, that was great!

Hey BTW - you gotta admit.  That "Wine" poem gives new meaning to the phrase "Poetry Slam."

[Wyatt Halliday]

Jay,

I know that you are a man of many interests.

I think you know what I mean when I say I'm shocked beyond belief at this news.

......and folks, the above comment has absolutely NOTHING to do with the poetry angle.

Mr. Flemma, you are indeed a bag full of suprises!!!

WH

[Jay Flemma]

Hiya, Wyatt!  Good to see you.  When my Jones interview comes out that he'll actually be talking a great deal about how much he loves Mike Strantz and A.W. Tillinghast designs and has always wanted to build a place like Chambers Bay.
His ideas are not unlike those we champion here...

[Tim Bert]

I'd like to hear expanded comments on this thought from the review - "As a small critique, one more line would have made it a sonnet."  It seems like 14 lines is a pretty loose definition of a sonnet.  I'm no poetry expert, but most forms of sonnets I'm aware of have some type of rhyme and rhythm scheme, neither of which I can find anywhere in that first poem.  Maybe I need to hear it read out loud.  Your thoughts on what charactristics of this poem would qualify it as a sonnet are appreciated.

One more thought.  As Beavis and Butthead would have said, "he said caress and sleek smoothness.. heh heh... heh heh."

[RJ_Daley]

I for one appreciate the commentary and analysis of the poetry.  I'm not educated enough to analyse the fine points, nor the mythological references, symbolism or allegory.  The only time I enjoyed the poetry was in class when the Prof., explained it.  Then, a dunce like me could get some appreciation out of the poet's work.

To think the RTJjr is a man of fine arts passions (whether the critics say he is any good technically or not) is a great look into a person's soul.  We enjoy and revere Mike STrantz for his artistic watercolor and sketching talent.  We also remember Desmond Muirhead for a number of fine art talents including painting, and I think if memory serves, he had a few flyers at poetry. 

Who knows... maybe Doak or Brauer are closet operatic singers or composers.  It all adds to our understandings of the full nature of a man, IMHO. 

That Jay would write this piece is also a good measure of his depth as a writer, IMO.  I don't see Dan Jenkins, John Feinstein, Lorne Rubenstein, or past greats like Wind and Darwin (to my knowledge) tackling this nexus of fine art hobbies of some of the well known golf course architects. 

I'm waiting for Jay to put the rest of the interview and insights together. 

[RJ_Daley]

I'm no poetry expert, but most forms of sonnets I'm aware of have some type of rhyme and rhythm scheme, neither of which I can find anywhere in that first poem.

Tim Bert, I'm just off the phone with Jay and he says you are correct sir!  But, he can't get to post until tomorrow.  But he wanted you to know that...

[Matt_Cohn]

I just don't think it's good poetry, but I don't mind Jay trying to review it.

Lines like "Let the tongue go speechless/As it tastes immortality" are extremely ordinary.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've been posting on GCA for a number of years and this is the single worst thread I can remember.  RTJ. Jr reputation is so bad, his relationship with his brother and family is very well known and it was only a few years ago that his entire staff and all employees quit because he was so difficult to work with.

In the end, he is not a very nice person and doesn't deserve this forum showing his softer - reflective side.

[RJ_Daley]

Joel, that seems harsh.  You seem quite sure of those judgements.  I personally have no idea how much of that is true.  But if so, can a man change?  If true, can a man have another side that may only come out in expression in other mediums, like writing or painting. 

There have been some real SOB's throughout history, that were great artists.  I'm not saying RTJjr is a great artist.  But, it seems he is trying to express himself in other ways that others may not know.  Maybe he hears the flutter of angel's wings, and wants to make amends.  Or, maybe the harsh judgement is not fully accurate, I for one don't know.  But, I'm willing to be open minded.

While GCA.com is a frank discussion of architecture, I don't think wandering into the minds and artistic sensibilities of archies is too far afield to try and understand their work.  Lord knows we have diverted to some far more odd and irrelavant topics.  It is a rare circumstance where I think we can as a forum say someone in the architecture field doesn't deserve our attention.

[Jay Flemma]

I'd like to hear expanded comments on this thought from the review - "As a small critique, one more line would have made it a sonnet."  It seems like 14 lines is a pretty loose definition of a sonnet.  I'm no poetry expert, but most forms of sonnets I'm aware of have some type of rhyme and rhythm scheme, neither of which I can find anywhere in that first poem.  Maybe I need to hear it read out loud.  Your thoughts on what charactristics of this poem would qualify it as a sonnet are appreciated.

One more thought.  As Beavis and Butthead would have said, "he said caress and sleek smoothness.. heh heh... heh heh."

Tim, you're right...a sonnet should have a rhyme scheme and a meter (often iambic pentameter), but lately since the rise of "free verse" and "narrative poetry" people have been doing whatever they like.  We're lucky to get 14 good lines.  I actually think it's better practice and good discipline to use either a meter or rhyme scheme or both.  It teaches you to economize and use precise words.

That's one way I think Jones's poetry could improve.  It won't read as smoothly orally due to a lot of syncopation - extra words that throw off the beat.   You can get in a groove reading stuff like "Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats" because much of it is dactylic .  It has a rhythmic pulse, like a song (that's what a poem was in the old days).  I like Jones's vibrant word choice and good eye.  Percy Bysshe Shelley he's not, but he's not trying to be.  He just likes writing poems almost like a diary.  Some of them are good and some of them may not be, but you know it takes a lot of courage to release poems for criticism when you're an amateur.  This is his first book, I think, so you we can be a little kinder critiquing this than his latest golf course.  After all, Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was Chambers Bay.

[Jay Flemma]

Click here for Robert Trent Jones's golf poems:

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=905

[Mike Hendren]

NOW can Barney bring back Haiku Tuesdays?

[Tim Pitner]

Please tell me this is a joke.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to Mr. Jones or Jay, but come on.  I nearly fell off my chair when I read,

"Oakmont by Henry Fownes

Created many frowns . . . " 

I've heard limericks that had more artistry and they began with a line about a man from Nantucket.  Stop the madness. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Eek. Does anyone know of some good golf poems out there somewhere?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()